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Primary secondary piping for boilers
Posted: 16 January 2008 04:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Sorry, but no men wearing skirts allowed in the Boiler Room.

Cussing and spitting on the floor is one thing, but the skirt business is where I draw the line.

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Orlan EKO 60
1,000 gallons of hot water storage (pending).

I like a source of fuel where the price, supply and quality are controlled by one guy: me.

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Posted: 28 January 2008 07:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Eric Johnson - 16 January 2008 04:45 PM

Sorry, but no men wearing skirts allowed in the Boiler Room.

Cussing and spitting on the floor is one thing, but the skirt business is where I draw the line.

Aye, and as 1/4 Scotts (Paternal Grandmother was a MacKenzie), (or more if the Scapa is flowing) I must ask what ye has against skirts?  tongue rolleye

Gooserider

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Stove #1 - VC Encore 2550 catalytic - installed, hearth extension built. Inspected, passed, and BURNING!  (10-12 hrs / load)
Stove #2 - 1979 Pro-Former, Model Z (Pre-EPA smoke dragon) Moved to basement, replacing #3 Inspected and passed
Stove #3 - Unknown brand, pre-EPA smoke dragon, now removed, sitting outside, likely to become smoker.
Primary heat wood, backup gas HVAC.

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Posted: 28 January 2008 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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They’re only permitted when accompanied by bagpipes or when worn by Mel Gibson. Of course, anyone carrying a bottle of fine Highland scotch gets in no matter what they’re wearing (or not wearing).

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Orlan EKO 60
1,000 gallons of hot water storage (pending).

I like a source of fuel where the price, supply and quality are controlled by one guy: me.

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Posted: 08 February 2008 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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The layout looks like there might be one un needed pump

If I understand what I have been told you might be able to eliminate a pump and possibly consider placing the primary circulator on the supply going out, unless it’s a heat issue with a wood boiler. I found great advice and plenty of layout examples here http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/heatingproducts/heatu/heatinguniversity.asp?stype=../../products.htm
they answered my questions and help set up a “light weight “ system using 3 speed pumps. Simple is better and extra pumps means more elec :O(

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Posted: 12 February 2008 12:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Forest thanks for the link now I can read and learn so my input can be more than ........... What do you think of my new plumbing company
Plumbers in skirts ( an all female crew) I think we might do quite well !

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Posted: 12 February 2008 04:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Tony H - 12 February 2008 12:52 AM

Forest thanks for the link now I can read and learn so my input can be more than ........... What do you think of my new plumbing company
Plumbers in skirts ( an all female crew) I think we might do quite well !

Sounds good to me - a good way to make “Plumbers Butt” a non-problem (much to the dissappointment of Duluth Trading Co.) tongue wink

Gooserider

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Stove #1 - VC Encore 2550 catalytic - installed, hearth extension built. Inspected, passed, and BURNING!  (10-12 hrs / load)
Stove #2 - 1979 Pro-Former, Model Z (Pre-EPA smoke dragon) Moved to basement, replacing #3 Inspected and passed
Stove #3 - Unknown brand, pre-EPA smoke dragon, now removed, sitting outside, likely to become smoker.
Primary heat wood, backup gas HVAC.

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Posted: 20 March 2008 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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I thought this might be a good place to put this link. I also thought I had a good piping plan ready to go until this publication made me think. I would be interested in hearing from anyone that has used this hydraulic separator system. 

http://www.caleffi.us/caleffi/en_US/Site/Technical_library/Idraulica_magazine/args/detail/~Details~Magazines~magazine_detail_0000054/type/magazine/index.sdo

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Posted: 19 April 2008 04:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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hot rod,

Thanks for the great post…

How do you “pull energy from the buffer without ever flowing through the boiler”? In the diagram, the piping looks to be configured to only charge the buffer. How do you pull through the pump with the check valve?

Please tell me what I am missing,
Steve

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Posted: 19 April 2008 07:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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SteveJ - 19 April 2008 04:52 AM

hot rod,

Thanks for the great post…

How do you “pull energy from the buffer without ever flowing through the boiler”? In the diagram, the piping looks to be configured to only charge the buffer. How do you pull through the pump with the check valve?

Please tell me what I am missing,
Steve

The Primary loop is the common denominator in the piping. The boiler itself is a secondary loop. Therefore, you can set up your control strategy to pick up heat from the highest temperature source. If the boiler would happen to be at a lower temp than the tank, the boiler circ would stop and the tank circ would come on dumping its heat into the primary loop.

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Posted: 20 April 2008 03:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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So, there should be two circuits into the butffer tank:

1. As drawn in the diagram, to charge the tank from the primary loop.
2. (Not shown in diagram) Circulator reversed from that in diagram with a short dip tube, to extract heat from the tank to the primary loop.

Correct?

Then what is the general rule for sizing the primary circulator in relation to the secondary circulators?

Thanks,
Steve

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Posted: 20 April 2008 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Sure, you could have two loops into the buffer.  What I find is any time my boiler exceeds 150 the buffer circ is running.  As such the tank is always blended, not much stratification with the buffer tank circ running.

On one hand I want the cooler water from the bottom of the tank to return to the primary loop and boiler to leverage delta t to the boiler and keep the efficiency up.

However if the tank stratifies, for instance over night without the buffer circ running, in that case you would want to pull any heat loads off the top, warmest point.  My buffer circ runs until that tank drops to 100F as my radiant floors can use temperature that low.

If you have loads thay require higher temperatures, of course shut down the buffer at the lowest possible “useable” temperature.

Whenever the buffer circ is off the boiler output would be going directly to the loads without “seeing” the buffer.

Keep in mind under “ideal” conditions, at load, the boiler would be matched exactly to the load and the buffer becomes “unknown” to the system.  The buffer is merely a parking space, either for excess btus, over heat protection, maybe solar storage input.

You might consider the buffer as a “fixer” for the in-ability of solid fueled appliances to track close or exactly to the load.  Different jobs require different size tanks to try to “nail” the perfect blend of not storing anymore then really needed, but enough to buffer all conditions, or perhaps offer some “non burn” times

I can’t say there is an ideal piping, size, or control configuration.  It really needs to be sized and designed to the task you have in mind.  I chose 500 gallons because it will buy me a days worth of heat, at design.  It fit in the space nicely, and I don’t mind switching to a mod con LP boiler back up.

Others here want to burn hard and long and store more “time.” For them more capacity may be better.

Keep in mind more capacity = more standby loss. I feel there is an upper limit to realistic thermal storage, but it’s a moving target smile

Th primary loop circ is usually a low head, high GPM circ. It’s ONLY lob it to move fluid around that circulator loop.  It doesn’t move any flow through secondary loops.  Either the Grundfos 15-58 or Taco oo7 on speed 1 will usually be fine for that.  To move 150,000 BTU at a 20Fdegree delta T you need to move 15 gpm.  look for a circ to do that job at a low head, some of the DHW recirc pumps are great, but expensive as they are usually bronze or stainless volutes.

hr

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Posted: 29 April 2008 04:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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master of sparks,

Thanks for the detailed explanation…

For a strictly off-grid house with power consumption at a premium, I think I like nofossil’s approach over the primary/secondary approach. In nofossil’s setup there is never more than one circulator on at a time and maybe a few zone values. With the primary/secondary setup, it appears that the primary pump is on 24/7 and there seams to be the same number of zone valves required and more circulators = more power consumption.

Am I comparing apples to apples?

What do you think is the ultimate off-grid setup?

Thanks,
Steve

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Posted: 29 April 2008 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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these off grid friends, Larry and Suzanne in northern California used greenhouse window operators connected to spring loaded ball valves to control the temperature of his gravity fed radiant wall heating system.

Solar via PV powered circs to supply the wall radiant and DHW. Zero power consumption for heat and DHW.  Very clever, and comfortable from a few years of experience.  Small, about 1KW of PV power.  They do have a back up generator with a homemade HX for heating the solar tank when it runs.

hr

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Posted: 01 May 2008 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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steam man - 20 March 2008 08:33 AM

I thought this might be a good place to put this link. I also thought I had a good piping plan ready to go until this publication made me think. I would be interested in hearing from anyone that has used this hydraulic separator system. 

http://www.caleffi.us/caleffi/en_US/Site/Technical_library/Idraulica_magazine/args/detail/~Details~Magazines~magazine_detail_0000054/type/magazine/index.sdo

RE: Callefi

Here’s a project we did last year in a church. The hydraulic separator is the green and silver tank looking affair in the middle of all the pipes. We used this method of piping because flow requirements for the system are far different than the boilers that drive it.

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Posted: 01 May 2008 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Nice looking job. Is that an expansion tank on the top?

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Orlan EKO 60
1,000 gallons of hot water storage (pending).

I like a source of fuel where the price, supply and quality are controlled by one guy: me.

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