10moreyears, im no electrician but i believe that the 3/4hp single phase motor that the garn uses for draft induction, if run for a total of 6 hrs/day at 18 cents per kilowat hr costs about 72 cents per day. oh, it runs at 5.5 amps., in conjunction a taco 14 circ costs 76 cents a day running continuously, it consumes 1.45 amps or 174 watts
Thank you for the response. So about 120v X 5.5a = 660w X 6 hours/day (est.) X 30 days = 118kwh/month. That is definitely a major consideration for off-grid solar. Greenwood seems to be one of the few gasifiers without a required fan, but has its own set of issues. Orlan EKO looks relatively frugal at 35w. Good info on the circulation pump as well, I had underestimated the power required there. All interesting issues that will take some consideration… straight wood stove(s) and/or masonry (russian) fireplace looking more likely.
Gary has a 15 year warranty on his boilers per his ad.
I will let you know what exactly is in the written warranty when I receive it.
I’ll be taking a trip to the “S” shop tomorrow, and will most likely get on the list if all looks good. According to Gary, it sounds like I’ll be using a double-wall stainless chimney i/o Isokern due to condensation considerations.
As far as off grid power is concerned, wouldn’t an extra panel or two make up for any power consumed by fan(s) and pump(s)? Especially if you’re in a sunnier location than the southern tier of NY? Wait. Every location is sunnier than here
There was an interesting article about Outdoor Boilers (including the Garn as an alternative) in the most recent issue of Northern Woodlands Magazine. I think what I came away from the article with about the Garn at least was that the shape and size can be a challenge and that it needed to fed frequently. I have no personal experience with a Garn. Here is the article in case you are interested -
This is a great magazine for those unfamiliar with it.
Best.
Pete
I just read (browsed) that article. My wife and I used to live in Peru,NY about a decade ago. I remember choking on the air because it was so heavy with wood smoke in the winter. I’m pretty sure that it was before anybody in town was running an OWB, too! Ah, the memories.......-Actually, it’s home of the best apples I’ve ever tasted. The guy who ran the gym I lifted at used to walk in and toss us Honey Crisp apples that were fresh from an orchard down the road.
[]… As far as off grid power is concerned, wouldn’t an extra panel or two make up for any power consumed by fan(s) and pump(s)? Especially if you’re in a sunnier location than the southern tier of NY? Wait. Every location is sunnier than here
Chris
Well, I currently live in a very sunny environment where heating load is minimal, but the planning is for a home in a 10,000 degree day heating environment with more percentage sun in the winter than many areas, but limited hours due to latitude. In that environment, 100kwh in december (reliably, including years with below average sun) requires about 2kw of photovoltaic which is about $8-10k. Given that this is long-range planning, it is possible that solar panel costs will decrease significantly by the time I build… one can always hope.
There was an interesting article about Outdoor Boilers (including the Garn as an alternative) in the most recent issue of Northern Woodlands Magazine. I think what I came away from the article with about the Garn at least was that the shape and size can be a challenge and that it needed to fed frequently. I have no personal experience with a Garn. Here is the article in case you are interested -
This is a great magazine for those unfamiliar with it.
Best.
Pete
Pete,
You need to read that article again, that ONE Garn is heating 23 homes and needs to be fed 19 times a day!
If it were one home the Garn could easily go 24++ hours between burns
Well, after visiting Gary this morning, my wife and I are pretty much set on his 1450 gal. unit. To heat two homes and provide domestic hot water, it would average 1 firing/day, though maybe twice/day in the coldest months. I have a “neighbor” with this model, so I’ll call him to check it out. The other option would be to get a 1050 gal. and have a 1,000 gal. propane tank for water storage, but it would take up most of my planned shed space. -I’d rather not build bigger due to property tax issues, so I’ll most likely go with the 1450 as stated before. It’s a very intuitive unit, and has SOME built in room for tweaking WITHOUT modification. His office unit ran very impressively, and he demonstrated how the different air variables affected the properties of the burn. You could see and hear the fire change almost instantly when any of the air flows were changed. Then, of course, Gary let the controls take over and you could hear the proper “roar” that came with the ideal balance of primary and secondary airflow. You could also see the stack temp (flue) fall back into the desired range at this point. It was good stuff, and a nice visit to boot. I’d like to add that I’m positive a Garn would suit our needs as well, but I REALLY like to keep my business as local as possible. So, no Garn bashing from me. They do their job well from what I’ve read, just with a different method to accomodate for operator error/variation.
Does Gary offer the expansion tank? If not, that could be pricey too.
It’s included with every boiler Gary sells but in my install the total storage will exceed 3000 gal so I’m getting a 500 gal used propane tank for expansion.
Maybe I’m confused, but I thought that the whole function of a true expansion tank was to separate the atmospheric air from the expanding water with a bladder, not just a reservoir to dump excess water into and then siphon back in when it cools down. I my opinion that is a semi-closed system kind of like a coolant system on an automobile. You have to be able to separate the water from atmospheric air or the water will absorb o2 even if the reservoir tank is closed it is still filled with air that is sharing the same volume as the water. Is this right?
Maybe I’m confused, but I thought that the whole function of a true expansion tank was to separate the atmospheric air from the expanding water with a bladder, not just a reservoir to dump excess water into and then siphon back in when it cools down. I my opinion that is a semi-closed system kind of like a coolant system on an automobile. You have to be able to separate the water from atmospheric air or the water will absorb o2 even if the reservoir tank is closed it is still filled with air that is sharing the same volume as the water. Is this right?
Garnification,
Over time all of the oxygen from the expansion tank will be consumed as it reacts with iron in the system. Once that is done, no further oxidation will occur unless the system has additional water added.
Maybe I’m confused, but I thought that the whole function of a true expansion tank was to separate the atmospheric air from the expanding water with a bladder, not just a reservoir to dump excess water into and then siphon back in when it cools down. I my opinion that is a semi-closed system kind of like a coolant system on an automobile. You have to be able to separate the water from atmospheric air or the water will absorb o2 even if the reservoir tank is closed it is still filled with air that is sharing the same volume as the water. Is this right?
Garnification,
Over time all of the oxygen from the expansion tank will be consumed as it reacts with iron in the system. Once that is done, no further oxidation will occur unless the system has additional water added.
Hugh
If thats the case, then why do expansion tank mfgs. put bladders in them? Like when a water well expansion tank ruptures the bladder the compressed air dissolves into the water and there becomes no room for expansion and the pressure switch starts to short cycle.
Are you saying that after the 20 some % of o2 is consumed the 78-80% of remaining gases will fill the compression void?
Maybe I’m confused, but I thought that the whole function of a true expansion tank was to separate the atmospheric air from the expanding water with a bladder, not just a reservoir to dump excess water into and then siphon back in when it cools down. I my opinion that is a semi-closed system kind of like a coolant system on an automobile. You have to be able to separate the water from atmospheric air or the water will absorb o2 even if the reservoir tank is closed it is still filled with air that is sharing the same volume as the water. Is this right?
Garnification,
Over time all of the oxygen from the expansion tank will be consumed as it reacts with iron in the system. Once that is done, no further oxidation will occur unless the system has additional water added.
Hugh
If thats the case, then why do expansion tank mfgs. put bladders in them? Like when a water well expansion tank ruptures the bladder the compressed air dissolves into the water and there becomes no room for expansion and the pressure switch starts to short cycle.
Are you saying that after the 20 some % of o2 is consumed the 78-80% of remaining gases will fill the compression void?
Garnification,
Your do have some valid points. Modern expansion tanks for bladders to prevent them from eventually becoming waterlogged. We use to bleed the old compression tank on our well about once ever two years. (Pre-bladder days) Plus the other gasses may well dissolve in the water over time although this happens more slowly at higher temperatures as gasses are less soluble at higher temperatures unlike most solids.
So I would agree that one would need to drain the expansion tank every so often and that would intorduce more oxigen into the system. Probably not much at all compared to a truely open system.
Any and all sealed/pressurized systems require an expansion or compression type tank. Water does not compress so therefore you must provide a place for it to expand or contract based on system temperature.
As previously pointed out a system containing a couple thousand gallons of water will require a fairly large tank. My design software says that given normal parameters of fill pressure, height to the top of the system, water temp and piping you need a tank volume of over 200 gallons.
I’ve noticed that some manufacturers of open OWB’s are providing an internal “bladder” that compresses to help limit discharge when things heat up.
What I’m trying to clarify is that a true expansion tank with a bladder is needed in a sealed pressurized system to keep o2 out of the water. Even if water or air is pumped into a single chamber sealed tank only half full of either, the air will eventually dissolve into the water under pressure and the tank will in time become full of water leaving no room for further expansion. My point is that there needs to be a barrier between the air and water or it won’t work.
