Chris S - 14 March 2008 10:10 PM

I’m sure you’ll get a lot more responses on this one, but here’s my opinion.
We call furnaces scorched air heat, and I don’t sell them to me customers
Having lived with radiant heat- how could you possibly consider anything else.

Yes you can buy a lot of HVAC for 10,000 but with the increasing cost of fuel (s) I think buying the most efficient equipment you can afford ( or even borrow to own) makes more sense now than ever.

I haven’t installed mine yet- I’m also in the process of building a new home, and having seen 5 gasifiers recently , I’m also buying an EKO

Good luck with your new home
Chris

Chris - you say you’ve seen 5 gasifiers recently.  I’m assuming the EKO was most impressive to you or what you’re looking for in a gasifier… is this a correct assumption?  Why do you plan on purchasing an EKO over others such as Tarm, Econoburn, etc?

Thanks,
lumbajac

We went through this in another thread- last month.  Long & Short of it- I made a 400 mile day trip to the NYS farm show… Eric was there too I missed him by a day.  I originally was considering EKO, Tarm, Woodgun, Greenwood & Econoburn- I may have missed one.  My take on it is this>..
I’m in the construction industry, and we also install boilers.  Greenwood calls their unit a furnace, and that scared me to start with, then I started reading about customer service & cracks in the refractory, so I wrote them off. Tarm & Woodgun I looked at locally years ago.  Econoburn appears to be a copy of the EKO, not in the field a long time- the factory rep would not tell me how many are in service( thats a trade secret) but touted the stoutness of their handle.  I’ve heard they have some problems in the rear tubes- but would’nt totally discount them- they’re built by a good company who I believe will stand behind their product.
I talked with MArk from AHONA (.com) who was extremely knowledgeable, has customers burning these units etc.  I feel very comforatble with the EKO product, have found no negative comments on these pages, and believe the support is there as issues arrive.
AS I posted previously.  Find a venue in your area, our was the NYS farm show where representatives for thes companies will be and walk from vendoe to vendor, and you’ll make the best decision for you.  Travel if you have to, it’ll be worth the time & money.
Lastly read as much as you can here.  People are happy to tell you when they’re happy & just as fast to let you know of a problem.
Good Luck
Chris

I’d spend lots of time on the construction and setting of the home.  Passive solar would be high on y list.  No moving parts!

As would the most efficient construction, including windows you can find.  Consider an average home may require 20- 25 btu/ square foot, shoot for a design that could be heated with 10 BTU/ sq ft.

When you have the load calc in hand then it’s time to consider heating options.  You may be surprised to see loads so low that little additional heat would be needed above typical internal gains.

Certainly an active solar for DHW preheat and possible heat load.

Central air would be a good idea for resell??  Check with real estate folks on that.  It may be hard to sell without central air someday.

If you go with wood consider gas or electric back up.

I’m looking hard at small cogen units.  we get ice storms here on a yearly basis.  Be nice to have some power and heat from a generator.

Local energy costs may help you decide if geo thermal is an option.  Heat, cooling, and DHW is very possible from some holes in the ground.

The choices border on mind boggling these days.

hr

heaterman - 15 March 2008 10:29 AM

Hooo Boy........... Where to start? (I really can’t believe there’s a new house being constructed in Michigan!!!)

First off, in new construction you’ll have to deal with codes which require an automatically operated heat source. That eliminates using wood only. You’ll have to have a boiler or furnace for backup. Check with you local AHJ to see what they will allow, sometimes just a gas fired space heater will satisfy the automatic requirement. Just remember that you’re going to have to integrate your wood fired side into whatever else the state views as your “main” heat source. 

There’s another really good option in hydronic heat besides traditional baseboard and radiant and that is a panel radiator system. We install a lot of ‘em. It is by far the least complicated type of hydronic system you can install when done right and supplies very nice heat. One customer said that if he had known how comfortable the variable heat from a panel rad was, he would have skipped the infloor in his new house. Go here http://www.hydronicalternatives.com to see a wide variety of shapes and sizes Look at the Radson line for basic European radiators. We distribute them here in Michigan. The piping for these is very simple to set up and the beautiful thing about a panel rad system is that where ever you have a rad you have a thermostat. These “thermostat’s” modulate the water flow through the rad heating it up or letting it cool to match the room setting. In other words the output is proportional to the load of the room. That’s the key to the comfort. The heat is not on/off but rather like cruise control on your car, just matching the load required to maintain the setting.  PM me if you want more info.

My ideal system would be a wood boiler with a lot of storage, panel rads with maybe some underfloor tube for floor warming in the bath and kitchen. Control would consist of a weather responsive mixing valve that modulates that water temp based on how cold it is outside and a TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) on each rad. If the rads are sized correctly you would be able to fire your storage to 180-200 and then have usable heat all the way down to 120* or so. The bad part about a forced air or even a baseboard system is that those types of heat emitters require fairly hot water to provide usable amounts of heat. 140* is about as low as you can go and in severe weather you’d probably need 160+. This mandates firing more often due to the narrower “band” of operating temperatures.

That’s enough for now, management is calling............

Heaterman - I have a Jotul 600 free-standing gas fireplace as my backup heat.  I’m told it will suffice for backup by my insurance carrier and by other contractors… I’ll have to get the ultimate word from our local inspector. 

I checked out the radiant panels you mention at hydronic alternatives.  They look good and I like the thermostatic radiator valve.  I’m thinking for me that infloor radiant in the basement slab, infloor radiant on the first floor, and radiant panels on the second floor would be a good option for my new home.  The first floor will be tile and hardwood.  Second floor will be all carpeting… second floor is mostly bedrooms and a family room.  Only thing is it would be nice to have a programmable thermostat ramp down the heat supply to the whole house during the day when all are at work or at school.  I’m assuming you can’t do this with the radiant panels?

Any suggestions to offer for first floor in-floor radiant with mostly tile and hardwood?  There seem to be a lot of new products for holding up the pex tubing under the subfloor including hydronic alternatives track system.  The thermalboard seems to be another interesting option, but having to put another layer of board over the thermalboard for tile or stone applications seems to defeat the purpose some… might as well staple the pex to the bottom of your subfloor if your goign to cover it up with more plywood, no?

Thanks,
lumbajac

lumbajac - 16 March 2008 07:35 AM

heaterman - 15 March 2008 10:29 AM

Hooo Boy........... Where to start? (I really can’t believe there’s a new house being constructed in Michigan!!!)

First off, in new construction you’ll have to deal with codes which require an automatically operated heat source. That eliminates using wood only. You’ll have to have a boiler or furnace for backup. Check with you local AHJ to see what they will allow, sometimes just a gas fired space heater will satisfy the automatic requirement. Just remember that you’re going to have to integrate your wood fired side into whatever else the state views as your “main” heat source. 

There’s another really good option in hydronic heat besides traditional baseboard and radiant and that is a panel radiator system. We install a lot of ‘em. It is by far the least complicated type of hydronic system you can install when done right and supplies very nice heat. One customer said that if he had known how comfortable the variable heat from a panel rad was, he would have skipped the infloor in his new house. Go here http://www.hydronicalternatives.com to see a wide variety of shapes and sizes Look at the Radson line for basic European radiators. We distribute them here in Michigan. The piping for these is very simple to set up and the beautiful thing about a panel rad system is that where ever you have a rad you have a thermostat. These “thermostat’s” modulate the water flow through the rad heating it up or letting it cool to match the room setting. In other words the output is proportional to the load of the room. That’s the key to the comfort. The heat is not on/off but rather like cruise control on your car, just matching the load required to maintain the setting.  PM me if you want more info.

My ideal system would be a wood boiler with a lot of storage, panel rads with maybe some underfloor tube for floor warming in the bath and kitchen. Control would consist of a weather responsive mixing valve that modulates that water temp based on how cold it is outside and a TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) on each rad. If the rads are sized correctly you would be able to fire your storage to 180-200 and then have usable heat all the way down to 120* or so. The bad part about a forced air or even a baseboard system is that those types of heat emitters require fairly hot water to provide usable amounts of heat. 140* is about as low as you can go and in severe weather you’d probably need 160+. This mandates firing more often due to the narrower “band” of operating temperatures.

That’s enough for now, management is calling............

Heaterman - I have a Jotul 600 free-standing gas fireplace as my backup heat.  I’m told it will suffice for backup by my insurance carrier and by other contractors… I’ll have to get the ultimate word from our local inspector. 

I checked out the radiant panels you mention at hydronic alternatives.  They look good and I like the thermostatic radiator valve.  I’m thinking for me that infloor radiant in the basement slab, infloor radiant on the first floor, and radiant panels on the second floor would be a good option for my new home.  The first floor will be tile and hardwood.  Second floor will be all carpeting… second floor is mostly bedrooms and a family room.  Only thing is it would be nice to have a programmable thermostat ramp down the heat supply to the whole house during the day when all are at work or at school.  I’m assuming you can’t do this with the radiant panels?

Any suggestions to offer for first floor in-floor radiant with mostly tile and hardwood?  There seem to be a lot of new products for holding up the pex tubing under the subfloor including hydronic alternatives track system.  The thermalboard seems to be another interesting option, but having to put another layer of board over the thermalboard for tile or stone applications seems to defeat the purpose some… might as well staple the pex to the bottom of your subfloor if your goign to cover it up with more plywood, no?

Thanks,
lumbajac

Look at radiant products that install with an aluminum surface for excellent conductive transfer.  Warmboard makes a 4X8 stuctural panel.  Hardwood nails right over it.  Tile would require a cementious backerboar over it.  I like the Roth foam panels with an aluminum layer.  An over the top product with excellent heat transfer, and a small r value from the foam.  Thicker aluminum transfers the heat outward better then the foil covered products.  you really get what you pay for with the heavier aluminum.

Outdoor reset control watch and adjust your system supply temperatures based on outdoor temperature.  Consider the type with indoor and outdoor feedback for excellent results.

Not to deep on the setback, maybe 5 degrees.

Heimeier, one of the largest TRV manufacturers in the world has a clever setback timer for TRVs.  Battery powered, about 5 years on two double AAs.

The key is to design you system to operate at the lowest possible temperatures. This invites thermal solar interface.

hr

RE: Setback, radiant combination systems, under floor vs above floor radiant and all that happy stuff.

First let me go back a step and reinforce what’s already been said about the building envelope. Every dollar you invest in “extra” insulation, best grade windows and doors, sealing to eliminate air infiltration etc. will be returned many times over. The net effect is that all of your heating and/or AC system component can be smaller, your system will require less water flow and therefore less pump and comfort will be improved.

Setback with a master thermostat or other control can easily be done. The exact method will be determined by the type of system you ultimately choose. Suffice to say that a thermostat can be connected to the main circ for the system and it can shut down all circulation to drop the temp. Another way is to incorporate a smart control that will vary the water temp to accomplish the same thing. When you hit the setback period the mixing device will drop the water temp going to your system and lower the heat output in that way. Circulation still stays on but at lower temp. Some folks I have done this for say they can drop temps further and still remain comfortable.

An above floor system such as Climate Panel or Thermo Board will give you much faster response than an underfloor type system. It will also work well with much lower water temps than you would need with tube under the floor. As I said before, designing your system to work with lower water temps can really increase its usefulness (incorporating solar) and lengthen the amount of time between firing the boiler. I know a guy with a 24 year old Garn that has a couple solar panels hooked up to it. He told me that the panels alone will keep the 1,250 gallons of water at 100-110* all summer without ever building a fire in the Garn itself. This allows him to heat nearly all of his domestic hot water and a hot tub for almost no cost at all.

As far as resale value of your home goes, I am already getting questions from folks considering buying a home and calling me to get an idea of heating costs and what shape the heating system is in. I think that we will see the energy requirements of a structure become a top priority of buyers within the very near future. Probably within the next two years. LP and fuel oil prices are through the roof and natural gas will not be far behind. Any extra investment you make in alternative energy and/or reduction of the energy required will be worth a bunch to a future home buyer. Banks are even starting to get the picture because they know that if a home owner is spending $6-800 a month for heating costs, that’s money not available to pay the mortgage. The tide is beginning to turn and we are facing a major sea change in how people view energy costs associated with a given structure.

master of sparks - 16 March 2008 09:53 AM

lumbajac - 16 March 2008 07:35 AM

heaterman - 15 March 2008 10:29 AM

Hooo Boy........... Where to start? (I really can’t believe there’s a new house being constructed in Michigan!!!)

First off, in new construction you’ll have to deal with codes which require an automatically operated heat source. That eliminates using wood only. You’ll have to have a boiler or furnace for backup. Check with you local AHJ to see what they will allow, sometimes just a gas fired space heater will satisfy the automatic requirement. Just remember that you’re going to have to integrate your wood fired side into whatever else the state views as your “main” heat source. 

There’s another really good option in hydronic heat besides traditional baseboard and radiant and that is a panel radiator system. We install a lot of ‘em. It is by far the least complicated type of hydronic system you can install when done right and supplies very nice heat. One customer said that if he had known how comfortable the variable heat from a panel rad was, he would have skipped the infloor in his new house. Go here http://www.hydronicalternatives.com to see a wide variety of shapes and sizes Look at the Radson line for basic European radiators. We distribute them here in Michigan. The piping for these is very simple to set up and the beautiful thing about a panel rad system is that where ever you have a rad you have a thermostat. These “thermostat’s” modulate the water flow through the rad heating it up or letting it cool to match the room setting. In other words the output is proportional to the load of the room. That’s the key to the comfort. The heat is not on/off but rather like cruise control on your car, just matching the load required to maintain the setting.  PM me if you want more info.

My ideal system would be a wood boiler with a lot of storage, panel rads with maybe some underfloor tube for floor warming in the bath and kitchen. Control would consist of a weather responsive mixing valve that modulates that water temp based on how cold it is outside and a TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) on each rad. If the rads are sized correctly you would be able to fire your storage to 180-200 and then have usable heat all the way down to 120* or so. The bad part about a forced air or even a baseboard system is that those types of heat emitters require fairly hot water to provide usable amounts of heat. 140* is about as low as you can go and in severe weather you’d probably need 160+. This mandates firing more often due to the narrower “band” of operating temperatures.

That’s enough for now, management is calling............

Heaterman - I have a Jotul 600 free-standing gas fireplace as my backup heat.  I’m told it will suffice for backup by my insurance carrier and by other contractors… I’ll have to get the ultimate word from our local inspector. 

I checked out the radiant panels you mention at hydronic alternatives.  They look good and I like the thermostatic radiator valve.  I’m thinking for me that infloor radiant in the basement slab, infloor radiant on the first floor, and radiant panels on the second floor would be a good option for my new home.  The first floor will be tile and hardwood.  Second floor will be all carpeting… second floor is mostly bedrooms and a family room.  Only thing is it would be nice to have a programmable thermostat ramp down the heat supply to the whole house during the day when all are at work or at school.  I’m assuming you can’t do this with the radiant panels?

Any suggestions to offer for first floor in-floor radiant with mostly tile and hardwood?  There seem to be a lot of new products for holding up the pex tubing under the subfloor including hydronic alternatives track system.  The thermalboard seems to be another interesting option, but having to put another layer of board over the thermalboard for tile or stone applications seems to defeat the purpose some… might as well staple the pex to the bottom of your subfloor if your goign to cover it up with more plywood, no?

Thanks,
lumbajac

Look at radiant products that install with an aluminum surface for excellent conductive transfer.  Warmboard makes a 4X8 stuctural panel.  Hardwood nails right over it.  Tile would require a cementious backerboar over it.  I like the Roth foam panels with an aluminum layer.  An over the top product with excellent heat transfer, and a small r value from the foam.  Thicker aluminum transfers the heat outward better then the foil covered products.  you really get what you pay for with the heavier aluminum.

Outdoor reset control watch and adjust your system supply temperatures based on outdoor temperature.  Consider the type with indoor and outdoor feedback for excellent results.

Not to deep on the setback, maybe 5 degrees.

Heimeier, one of the largest TRV manufacturers in the world has a clever setback timer for TRVs.  Battery powered, about 5 years on two double AAs.

The key is to design you system to operate at the lowest possible temperatures. This invites thermal solar interface.

hr

Heaterman and/or others,

Any more information regarding the Heimeier setback timer, Radson radiant panels, and Roth foam/aluminium in-floor underlayment?  I’m having difficulties finding more information on the web… who sells each, price, warranties, quality, etc?  I’ve got the basics from http://www.hydronicalternatives.com but am looking for more information if available, first-hand experiences, etc.

Thanks,
lumbajac

http://www.heatlines.com is a good place to shop for panel rads and those Heimier products.  Go to the Roth website to find a dealer near you.  I use Avco out of PA for Roth panels.  ask for Steve “Wheels” 215 949 1550

hr

You may want to look at a woodgun from alternative heating. They have an oil / gas burner option which would satisfy your need for an automatic heating system. They claim 85% eff on fossil fuels as well as wood which is as good as a stand alone oil boiler.