Oil and energy are NOT free markets, not by any stretch of imagination!
Never said they were, just pointed out that markets respond faster and more appropriately than government.
Some examples that come quickly to mind: Would we not be in a better position today if mandated mileage standards circa 70’s and 80’s had been maintained and even strengthened?
Not really. The harm to consumers may have been just as great, maybe more so. What should have been done is force producers to internalize all the costs and prevent them from offloading external costs onto taxpayers.
If you cause people pain (or lack of pleasure), they will respond quickly! That is the only dynamic at work. If you told people right now that we could lower the price of gas to $2.00 a gallon by allowing power plants to double their emissions (which would, in turn, kill many more people), they would vote yes! That is not a free market. That is mob behavior. Survival. Pleasure seeking. Conditioned response.
It is a free market when businesses must pay for all the costs associated with their business. You are specifically using a loaded example that is invalid because it is in fact framed as something it’s not. Yes people often take the easiest path, but that does not make a free market bad. That is where the government is supposed to step in as a referee and keep all parties honest.
I thought I was a Utopian!
Government as a referee - eh?
Let’s see - would they care more about a citizen or a corporation who flew them around in private jets, financed their campaign, provided them every luxury and VIP treatment?
Of course I agree that markets work! Slave markets work, heroin markets on the street corner work, black markets work, gray markets work....etc, etc.
The myth, as I see, is that anyone thinks there is something special about this - it’s become a sort of religion!
As far as a loaded example, we are talking about Energy, aren’t we? It is what all markets are based on.......in the end. You say that is a loaded example, yet this is EXACTLY the thinking that the “drill everywhere” ethic is based on...the perception that it will alleviate short term pain.
I think we can agree on one thing - if there is not a financial or major (jail, etc.) reason for corporations and people to act in an honorable way....then they will not! At least not in the marketplace.
Not trying to be ornery because I think we probably agree that the market, free or not, needs long term planning which takes into account all the various angles.
Listen once again to those Enron Energy traders laughing at 10’s of millions of suffering people! Then tell me we should punish those couple dozen traders - and how that will help the 10’s of millions that were hurt. That is the problem of culpability. You cannot get blood from a stone. The traders that are making big $$$ right now will NEVER pay the money back to the consumers who they are making it from.
No windfall profits tax, but:
1. Do not lower corporate taxes until and unless budget is balanced (a long way ahead!)
2. Remove or reduce current tax subsidies for domestic drilling - these were put into place to make more domestic drilling happen when oil was $30 or below. Now that it is over $100 this is certainly not needed....plenty of incentive in the oil itself.
The way I hear it, the Congress has been trying to remove those subsidies and have the money used for renewable energy crash programs, but the GOP and McCain have voted it down numerous times.
You have to be real careful about the language in these news stories - for instance, the Dem plan is said to have a “Windfall profits tax”.....which is true ONLY if the companies “failed to reinvest their profits in new exploration activity or renewable energy projects.” How can the same folks that want to open up every square foot of the coast for drilling...then complain that a company who does not actually drill or invest will be taxed?? Doesn’t make sense....
Another interesting use of words is that the bill “raises taxes on oil companies”. That is true only if you think this way - the government sent you out a $600 stimulus check this year. If they fail to do so next year because the economy improves greatly, is that a tax increase?
We need a crash program on alternative energy - even McSame is coming up with new expensive programs every day - like today he wants to give 300 million to someone to build a battery and $5,000 to the automakers for each clean car sold…
BUT, I think he forgot one thing - we have to pay for these efforts! The Bills which have been voted down use the removal of those tax breaks to PAY for the renewable stuff. So once again, we have Bizzarro Backwards world......the GOP jumping up and down about tax increases while funding programs which vastly increase the debt and deficit! I’m not saying the Dems have it perfect, but I would rather have an effort be financed then just printing money - we see now the effect of printing money (it is worth less).
Listen once again to those Enron Energy traders laughing at 10’s of millions of suffering people! Then tell me we should punish those couple dozen traders - and how that will help the 10’s of millions that were hurt. That is the problem of culpability. You cannot get blood from a stone. The traders that are making big $$$ right now will NEVER pay the money back to the consumers who they are making it from.
Except Enron happened because of government meddling with the market, not because of it. In an open market system what Enron did would have never been possible.
I think we can agree on one thing - if there is not a financial or major (jail, etc.) reason for corporations and people to act in an honorable way....then they will not! At least not in the marketplace.
Which is why a free market works better than government regulation. If corporations are forced to internalize costs by enforcement through courts and by people in the marketplace it keeps them honest.
Not trying to be ornery because I think we probably agree that the market, free or not, needs long term planning which takes into account all the various angles.
Which is not done better by government. Market driven solutions are always better than government ones. (Assuming noone is being defrauded)
Note that when I talk free market system I’m taking a system with minimal or no regulations outside of the prevention of companies/individuals using fraud or force.
Which is not done better by government. Market driven solutions are always better than government ones. (Assuming noone is being defrauded.
So nice to be an assuming Libertarian--bye the way you spelt none incorrectly.
Many things are better done better by government for the common good. (ASS) suming that private individuals will always step up to the plate, is extremely naive. In the real world that just doesn`t happen.
And when we lose all faith in government and society pulling together, then we shall indeed become an island and surely be washed away. Remember the old saying--"no man is an island, and the death of any man dimishes me”..
Apparently that is not the Liberatian Way--and I hope that my senses never become so compounded that it becomes my selfish way. Just too myoptic for my liking.
So, any bets as to how long before we start seeing new and creative tax increases to cover the losses to state coffers from reduced usage of toll roads and bridges?
So, any bets as to how long before we start seeing new and creative tax increases to cover the losses to state coffers from reduced usage of toll roads and bridges?
They already took care of that one! They sold (and are selling) roads and bridges to multi-national corporations, the idea being that these companies can increase rates and the pols will not have to take a popularity hit.......brilliant! Spanish and Australian companies will own our infrastructure....the Selling of America is almost 100% complete.
So, any bets as to how long before we start seeing new and creative tax increases to cover the losses to state coffers from reduced usage of toll roads and bridges?
After being ticketed at one of those “red light cameras” a few months back I discovered that most of them (in Texas at least) are owned by private organizations who’ve worked out a deal w/the state. Every person who runs a light is issued something similar to a “citizen arrest” by this private corp; a letter is sent with a fine attached. The infraction is never reported to your insurance and a ticket is never issued so there is no possibility of a warrant. The catch is, if you don’t pay the fine the company sends a notice to the DPS/DMV and you have a block issued on your registration so you cannot renew your tags when they expire. There was an article in a local paper talking about the state’s increased revenue since the institution of the red light cameras; it wasn’t a small amount by any means.
I’d imagine if people stop using toll roads (which is hard here, with most cities utilizing toll roads on the busiest highways/best routes), Texas would see an increase in red light cameras. Easy revenue, cheaper than a cop, very passive.
As an interesting aside, Lockheed Martin is the contractor for many of these Big Brother efforts - talk about the union of state and corporations! They build missiles and also keep DB of how you drive. Much more, too.
Yep. And guaranteed to be followed by the historic avalanche of “unintended consequences”.
In Virginia we are not only subject to the National Religion which is education, we have a State Religion. Roads. Everybody seems to feel they have a birthright to buy a house 75 miles from where they work and have everybody else pay for a six lane road to get them to work. I did that but never complained about trekking a two lane cow trail to work every day. I knew it was the price of my decision.
I now have the pleasure of educating their kids, paying for their roads and listening to them bitch about gas prices. Grrrr.... And don’t even get me started on the demands for more parks and golf courses.
Rick
