I didn’t realize those arc fault breakers were required everywhere now. I think I just have them in the bed rooms in our 5 year place.
Is it worthwhile retrofitting those breakers? Do they provide much more protection? I have to read more about them.
If you were going to power your house occasionally with a portable or standby generator, now would be the time to make provisions for that.
It’s not that fancy, but I found a simple generator interlock kit by SquareD, but even that required the upper right two breaker positions so I had to move the stove breakers. Luckily I found enough slack in the wire.
Retrofit applications can be hard to do. Each circuit must have a neutral wire (white) all the way back to the panel (without being tied into other circuits) when using the arc-fault breakers. If the electrician who wired your house was good this shouldn’t be a problem, but a lot of guys see white wires and splice them all together, it isn’t really a code or safety issue. This is common in multi gang boxes where there is 3-way switches wired to different circuits.
Personally i wouldn’t retro fit them in my house.
Yes they provide much more protection.
Definitely a good suggestion on adding provisions for the generator now!
As an electrician who has wired more than his share of houses i would be happy to help.
20 amp circuits for bedrooms is a little on the over kill side, unless you plan on running window a/c units in the bedrooms. I like to put 1-2 bedrooms per circuit depending on size. For example 2 small or medium sized bedrooms on a circuit, the master bed and bath lighting on it’s own circuit. I Prefer to run dedicated 20 amp circuits to the bathroom outlets that are near the bedrooms. (Code is 1 20 amp bathroom circuit could cover the entire house)
I prefer to run a dedicated NON GFI circuit for the fridge, also another dedicated 20 amp circuit if you have an over the range micro wave.
Like others have said don’t use the backwire (stab in) connections on outlets and switches. Nor daisy chain switches ( strip a little insulation, wrap around the screw and repeat until all the switches in a box are wired) take the time and make a good slice.
Good practice is a spare circuit up into the attic, or even better a spare conduit for future.
As others have said arc-fault breakers are required every where now, the exception is fixed appliances (garage door openers, furnaces, dryers, ranges, sump pumps etc and anything thats GFCI protected).
As far as arc fault breakers tripping, older vacuum cleaners, or any appliance that the brushes are worn out could cause it to trip. This was true for the older arc fault breakers, the newer ones seem to be a little less sensitive. You must make sure you keep your neutrals separate in multi gang boxes, as this could cause un-wanted tripping.
there is no max amount of boxes or devices that may be placed on a circuit, in residential anyways.
I like to also install a 200 amp service in the house regardless of size, because the price difference in materials is about $300 ish. This is not always practical in spec houses or duplex houses, those the builder usually requests the bare minimum allowed by code.
Re: u8at711. 2008 NEC (not adopted every where yet) Requires arc faults for almost all circuits now, and a 20 amp GFI in bathrooms has gone back to at least the 96 code cycle.
Any other questions ask here or feel free to PM me.
Not planning on running bedroom window A/C units as I am having an airconditioning coil installed in my furnace; not going to have an air conditioning unit quite yet, but the coil is in place. Will likely run separte light and outlet circuits - 14-2 for both in bedrooms, hallways, and living room. Will run 12-2 in kitchen, dining, basement workshop, and garage.
Thanks
How about kids???
Mine both seemed to have everything in the world plugged in, stereos, playstations, computers........loads that bedrooms were not designed to handle…
Daughter loved to plug hair curler in and then blow dry her hair, while everything else was running, in the bedroom
I agree with most 14 for lighting and 12 for outlets.
and I agree with the thought of running 12 for everything..
In a nutshell though you can’t just pack a 22 space 100 amp panel full of 20 amp breakers.
you need to calculate the load and then size the panel........ Like seige said 200amp seems to be the norm now anyway but it too can’t be packed full of 20amp breakers.........You can run 12 throughout the house and hook up 15 amp circuits (and breakers) to it but you can’t hook up a 20 amp breaker to a 14-2 (legally that is).
running 12-2 throughout can reduce costs in the future should you need to expand a circuit....
just my thoughts...... but with todays cost of copper if I had to do it allover again........ I’m not sure what I would do.
This probably won’t help you will it????????
I didn’t realize those arc fault breakers were required everywhere now. I think I just have them in the bed rooms in our 5 year place.
Is it worthwhile retrofitting those breakers? Do they provide much more protection? I have to read more about them.
If you were going to power your house occasionally with a portable or standby generator, now would be the time to make provisions for that.
It’s not that fancy, but I found a simple generator interlock kit by SquareD, but even that required the upper right two breaker positions so I had to move the stove breakers. Luckily I found enough slack in the wire.
Retrofit applications can be hard to do. Each circuit must have a neutral wire (white) all the way back to the panel (without being tied into other circuits) when using the arc-fault breakers. If the electrician who wired your house was good this shouldn’t be a problem, but a lot of guys see white wires and splice them all together, it isn’t really a code or safety issue. This is common in multi gang boxes where there is 3-way switches wired to different circuits.
Personally i wouldn’t retro fit them in my house.
Yes they provide much more protection.
Definitely a good suggestion on adding provisions for the generator now!
gotta love the shared neutral on the ground fault breakers too
gotta love the shared neutral on the ground fault breakers too
Don’t get me started… lets just say nicely that the previous company i worked for and my co-irkers weren’t the brightest bulbs. I’ve pulled my hair out plenty of times tracing out circuits that randomly trip.
The current company, i work with the owner and 2 other guys, mainly commercial and industrial. I am always told do it right, no matter how long it takes, go out and get anything you need in regards to tools and materials to get the job done. The pay and benefits are good too!
Running 20 amp circuits when not needed is not really an ideal practice, IMO (I am not an electrician or inspector, however).
The purpose of a circuit breaker is to protect an overload. Remember, you are going to be plugging in light wire (rated for 5 or 10 amps) into the outlets. If you have a problem in a light or appliance, you want the circuit breaker to trip quickly. In some situations, a 20 amp breaker might not trip allowing the power to flow until a fire started whereas a 15 amp might have tripped earlier.
Sure, it’s a somewhat uncommon scenario, but I’m just pointing out that “bigger isn’t always better” when you don’t need it. Breakers should be sized for the expected load.
Of course, 12 ga wire with 15 amp breakers is fine, that won’t cause the problem and if you ever really need it as a 20 amp circuit, you can easily replace the breaker.
As for Jim’s rant against incandescent lighting, from all that I’m reading, CFL’s are not all they are cracked up to be. They could turn out to be an environmental nightmare. If one breaks, you have a high risk situation with the mercury released. If it breaks onto carpet or furniture, the carpet or couch should be removed from the house and properly disposed of. Do not inhale the air without proper protection, etc. while you are cleaning up. And of course they don’t last as long as advertised, especially in non ideal usage (frequent on/off, etc.) And who disposes of the burned out bulbs in an environmentally safe manner? Yep, we’re sure going to save energy when I have to drive the car 30 miles to properly dispose of a burned out CFL. Right now I have a dozen burned out 4’ flourescents sitting around the basement that I can’t get rid of. This is good for the environment?
I have the standard 14-2 house / 12-2 kitchen/garage. I can’t ever remember tripping a breaker in the house...might have snapped one or two in the garage with space heater running, all ceiling lights on, 500W halogen work light, plus kicking on a chop saw which got stuck in the metal, 1/2 way through the cut.
IMHO, things are starting to use less electricity...not more. You may plug in a stereo, play station, TV, computer, cell phone, etc - and all that still won’t use 1,000 watts. I guess if you plan to stay at your home for ever, you could spend the extra cash and be in a “better to have and not need rather than need and not have” mode. But if you’re planning to move anytime in the next decade it would just be a waste. Even if you do trip a breaker - it’s not the end of the world...just re-set it and move one or two items from that plug to another. I’d be willing to make a few trips to the basement breaker panel to save a couple thousand bucks.
One thing I have invested in (when remodeling kitchens/baths) is MORE plugs...as it seems like more things need to be plugged in today...my cell phone, wife’s cell, computer, counter top appliances, various battery chargers, etc. So every place in my kitchen that would normally have been a single gang outlet, I put in a double. Though the cost of that is pretty minor - a buck for the box, few bucks for the receptacle and a few extra minutes to wire it up.
I have the standard 14-2 house / 12-2 kitchen/garage. I can’t ever remember tripping a breaker in the house...might have snapped one or two in the garage with space heater running, all ceiling lights on, 500W halogen work light, plus kicking on a chop saw which got stuck in the metal, 1/2 way through the cut.
IMHO, things are starting to use less electricity...not more. You may plug in a stereo, play station, TV, computer, cell phone, etc - and all that still won’t use 1,000 watts. I guess if you plan to stay at your home for ever, you could spend the extra cash and be in a “better to have and not need rather than need and not have” mode. But if you’re planning to move anytime in the next decade it would just be a waste. Even if you do trip a breaker - it’s not the end of the world...just re-set it and move one or two items from that plug to another. I’d be willing to make a few trips to the basement breaker panel to save a couple thousand bucks.
One thing I have invested in (when remodeling kitchens/baths) is MORE plugs...as it seems like more things need to be plugged in today...my cell phone, wife’s cell, computer, counter top appliances, various battery chargers, etc. So every place in my kitchen that would normally have been a single gang outlet, I put in a double. Though the cost of that is pretty minor - a buck for the box, few bucks for the receptacle and a few extra minutes to wire it up.
this makes sense except for the chance that electric space heaters might be used more due to higher oil prices at this point.
Do not “Back wire” plugs. It takes longer to use the screw posts but it’s far less prone to arcing and fires.
I have a question about recessed lights if you dont mind. You said dont use the push in posts on the back of outlets. How about the little plastic connectors that came on my Halo recessed fixtures .They replace the wire nut connectors and are push in types They were aready installed on the fixtures when I bought them. You simply stripped the wires and pushed them into the the little plastic connectors. Should I have cut these off and used a wire nut? Will I have future problems and should I take down the sheetrock and re-do before I plaster and it is too late? The attic area is not accessable. Thanks
Do not “Back wire” plugs. It takes longer to use the screw posts but it’s far less prone to arcing and fires.
I have a question about recessed lights if you dont mind. You said dont use the push in posts on the back of outlets. How about the little plastic connectors that came on my Halo recessed fixtures .They replace the wire nut connectors and are push in types They were aready installed on the fixtures when I bought them. You simply stripped the wires and pushed them into the the little plastic connectors. Should I have cut these off and used a wire nut? Will I have future problems and should I take down the sheetrock and re-do before I plaster and it is too late? The attic area is not accessable. Thanks
They are known in the business as “insulation displacement” connectors and are great for low current connections, eg: comm wiring. The jury is still out on their use in household wiring. The concept is that you are attaching less than an amp of current to wiring that may be carrying much more than an amp. It’s probably OK, but only time will tell how they pan out. I would rather use a wire nut, but I tend to err on the side of more traditional wiring practices.
If you are getting cold feet on your wiring job, you can pull out the housing from the ceiling without wrecking the sheetrock. The “can” is usually held in by a couple of sheet metal screws into the ring that mounts in the ceiling. After you drop the can, you can usually reach the junction box to access the wiring. Clip, strip and twist on a wire nut. Wire nuts are cheaper and more positive than an IDC, IMHO.
Thanks Chris for taking the time to answer my question. The plasterer is here today and I didnt have time to take all of the board down but I feel much better now just knowing I can still access the connections by taking the can down. I didnt realize you could do that. My biggest concern is if I have a future problem. Now at least I know I can fix it. Thanks again. In my mind I knew I should have cut those things off but I figured it the manufacturer put them there they must be good. I was wrong. They are 120V fixtures with 90 watt max bulbs so they are drawing 1.33 amps . That exceeds the 1 amp that they are supposively designed for . Too close of a margin if you ask me. Thanks again.
Scott
Also with those stupid connectors, not only are you attaching the load (light it self) but you are connecting the rest of the circuit through that cheap plastic connector, so in a larger kitchen or living room with a lot of recessed lights you could be putting 5-10 amps on those cheap cheesy connectors.
Reddox, the ones on the recessed fixtures require they be stripped before being inserted, so they are more along the lines of a back stab in device, not the insulation displacement type.
Shamelessly hot linked.
Thanks Chris for taking the time to answer my question. The plasterer is here today and I didnt have time to take all of the board down but I feel much better now just knowing I can still access the connections by taking the can down. I didnt realize you could do that. My biggest concern is if I have a future problem. Now at least I know I can fix it. Thanks again. In my mind I knew I should have cut those things off but I figured it the manufacturer put them there they must be good. I was wrong. They are 120V fixtures with 90 watt max bulbs so they are drawing 1.33 amps . That exceeds the 1 amp that they are supposively designed for . Too close of a margin if you ask me. Thanks again.
Scott
check your math
90 watts / 120 volts = .75 amp
the lighting connectors I saw at my electrical suppliers were good for 3 amps, not that I would use them.
I would use 12 for all receptacles, and 14 for all lighting. 14 is much nicer to work with than 12 when making up boxes, and when the circuit is properly loaded there is nothing wrong with it. Remember there is a fill capacity on the boxes depending on the wire size and the cubic inch volume of the box.
12-2 ...20 amp circuits is a great move.... perhaps not this very instant but surely in the future… What does one spend to have 20 amp breakers over 15 amp breakers? Not much...go for the long run and you can’t go wrong....the wire and breakers are so slight in price that the path remains clear to me ...do it while you can and you will never look back, at least in your lifetime.
