The light show with the proper psyche can be mind blowing .... I had to peel myself off the floor after this “shot”, and this was a weak secondary burn.
SECONDARY BURN IN A WOOD FIRE starts to occur when volatile gases from the heating wood ignite at a temperature of 600* F in the firebox above the fuel load. At this temperature, the gases are incompletely burned, resulting in smoke and many harmful pollutants going out your chimney. For complete combustion of the gases, and the remaining wood charcoal, a temperature of 1000* - 1100* F is required. (http://www.epa.gov)
Newer cat wood burning stoves can experience secondary burns at 500* - 700* F in a precious metal converter which is costly, some report “fussy” and requires maintenance.
Newer Phase II non-cat stoves, because of their baffle design above the fire, can have secondary burns in the 600* - 700* F range and above inside the stove. The problem is, this is a HOT fire which approaches overfiring usually requiring damping down incoming air to lower the temperature. The more damping, the lower the temp, the more smoke, pollution, inefficient burn and wasting of fuel.
My view: a new design, with MORE ceramic or masonry (like a firebox liner) on the INSIDE of a metal stove (vs outside like the soapstone/metal stoves) is needed to take the required higher interior temperatures necessary for a cleaner and more efficient burn. So, you think tanks out there, let’s start some R & D!
My view: a new design, with MORE ceramic or masonry (like a firebox liner) on the INSIDE of a metal stove (vs outside like the soapstone/metal stoves) is needed to take the required higher interior temperatures necessary for a cleaner and more efficient burn. So, you think tanks out there, let’s start some R & D!
I think Corie is already on it Marty. From the picture, it looks like he’s starting to see some nice results.
My view: a new design, with MORE ceramic or masonry (like a firebox liner) on the INSIDE of a metal stove (vs outside like the soapstone/metal stoves) is needed to take the required higher interior temperatures necessary for a cleaner and more efficient burn. So, you think tanks out there, let’s start some R & D!
Think about it.
Aye,
Marty
Good idea. Who knows? Maybe somebody will come along with one with firebrick lining the firebox on the sides and a ceramic fiber baffle in the top of the firebox.
My view: a new design, with MORE ceramic or masonry (like a firebox liner) on the INSIDE of a metal stove (vs outside like the soapstone/metal stoves) is needed to take the required higher interior temperatures necessary for a cleaner and more efficient burn. So, you think tanks out there, let’s start some R & D!
I think Corie is already on it Marty. From the picture, it looks like he’s starting to see some nice results.
I read the thread. Corie is pretty tight lipped about it. How do you know it’s lots of masonry inside and metal outside just from the picture and a few scant comments? How can you see “nice results” in that picture? I sure can’t but maybe it’s just me. Could be an oil drum fire… I’m not impressed by the photo or the secrecy.
My view: a new design, with MORE ceramic or masonry (like a firebox liner) on the INSIDE of a metal stove (vs outside like the soapstone/metal stoves) is needed to take the required higher interior temperatures necessary for a cleaner and more efficient burn. So, you think tanks out there, let’s start some R & D!
I think Corie is already on it Marty. From the picture, it looks like he’s starting to see some nice results.
I read the thread. Corie is pretty tight lipped about it. How do you know it’s lots of masonry inside and metal outside just from the picture and a few scant comments? How can you see “nice results” in that picture? I sure can’t but maybe it’s just me. Could be an oil drum fire… I’m not impressed by the photo or the secrecy.
Aye,
Marty
I can understand how you feel. You may already know but for the benefit of the other readers. Corie has a product development position at England Stove Co. I may need corrected on his exact position and the company’s name. At any rate, he is well aware of the matter and understands the limitations of the materials in the stove. Best of all, he is doing things about it . Of course that takes time and money and the secrecy is to protect the company’s investment in trying to get a better product to market. I’m sure you figured that much out.
I’m rather new here, but from what I gather, Corie is quite innovative. I don’t think he would be would post a picture of a fire if it was the same old same we are used to.
I agree it was a vague picture, but if we knew enough to understand what we was looking at, then the pic might be much more revealing. I suppose it might be like trying to interpret art.
Is there a difference in secondary burn in strong draft situations? In other words is it harder to ignite the secondary burn in the Fall when the stack differential is less than it might be in the dead of winter? Or if the a stove has intrinsically weak draft will it be less efficient under secondary air only conditions, burning dirty and cooling off. It would seem so but I don’t often see Draft and secondary burn discussed at the same time.
Draft is indeed crucial to secondary combustion, whether you have a tube style or some kind of refractory material as in a catalytic or non-catalytic stove. I saw a couple of different temp ranges posted, but for catalytic stoves it’s generally minimum 500F, 1100 for non-catalytic stoves. I haven’t owned a tube style yet, but use my friends Lopi Liberty and it needs a reasonably hot fire.
As to the “Government did us a favor” posts, in most cases I’d agree. I can get up to 12 hours burn time on my non-cat stove that I’d never be able to achieve with an old smoke dragon stove of the same dimensions, and when running properly, the visible emissions from the top of my stack are virtually non existent. That said, when used incorrectly or poorly designed, they can cause a fire to smolder worse than a smoke dragon of the pre-EPA era.
I have to wonder how many people who buy downdraft stoves really know what they’re getting into. I sure didn’t. Let’s face it, this forum isn’t required reading for the average guy tossing wood into a metal box. I asked a friend if his new VC was a cat or not - he had no idea. With everyone scrambling to find a woodstove (myself included) that scene will be playing out a lot more often.
Personally, I think the new afterburn technology is the coolest thing since sliced toast, but those incredibly low emissions ratings are for proper, if not ideal, burn situations. I think there are a lot of green/wet woodburners in the real world - I know I was one, until I checked out these forums!
My dealer certainly did not prepare/inform me of the nuances or difficulties in using a downdraft/ non-cat stove before I purchased mine. I had extensive experience with smoke dragons & catalytics as I grew up with them, so maybe he just assumed I knew what I was getting myself into. But I sure would have appreciated some insight from him on what types of setups (like mine) that are near certainly doomed to fail with a non-cat, but would have worked with a catalytic.
My dealer certainly did not prepare/inform me of the nuances or difficulties in using a downdraft/ non-cat stove before I purchased mine. I had extensive experience with smoke dragons & catalytics as I grew up with them, so maybe he just assumed I knew what I was getting myself into. But I sure would have appreciated some insight from him on what types of setups (like mine) that are near certainly doomed to fail with a non-cat, but would have worked with a catalytic.
What stoves are down draft??? This will be my first year with the F400 and i learned that seasoned wood and proper air flow will give good results.not like the i use three month old season wood in my smoke dragon and think its cool guy next door.
Geez, I was pretty sure he was talking about me. Not that there’s anything wrong with it.
I actually wasn’t paying attention and thought I was posting on the Dutchwest Non-Cat thread.
I hit submit and said… !!!
Well anyway, here’s yet another shot of my little CFM workshop stove cookin’ with the primary shut completely down. Took this pic about 5 minutes ago. Rick
. Of course that takes time and money and the secrecy is to protect the company’s investment in trying to get a better product to market. I’m sure you figured that much out.
