OK, you are definitely having happen what I did. Maybe you have a way better draft than I do to get your flue temps up that quick - I am only able to achieve those temps quickly when I have a REALLY thick bed of coals in there (like half way or more up the andirons). I think I’m going to install that flue damper for “emergencies” to kill the draft if needed. It might be a bit more difficult for you since you have a rear exit flue, but where the connector pipe sits in the flue collar, there is about a 1/16” gap all around. I can look down from the back of the stove and see one of three things: When rumbling is happening (either loud or soft), there are flames or a soft glow, respectively. If no rumbling, it’s dark and black down in there.
hookspaken, I really enjoyed my small dutchwest catalytic, and I really miss it. Too bad it was too small for me. The differences you will see with the non cat is a) It is easier to maintain flames in the firebox (even though the combustor might not be working and you’ll have lots of smoke), b) if you like things to work properly, you will probably be stepping outside constantly to see what the chimney looks like (you can look at the catalyst probe on your cat model to see the temperature climb), and c) there is a specifc trick to loading the stove - which I am still trying to figure out. The cat model you just pile the stuff in there (with good air space between pieces, and you in business. Definitely do some research before you make the switch. The non-cat may or may not be right for you. I am definitely a big believer in the catalytics. They are more efficient, have slightly lower emissions, and (in my opinion) are easier to operate. But who knows, you might get one, build your first fire, and have consistent performance all of the time - and have it easy for your wife to use, too. My wife can’t get the non-cat to work right, but had no problem with the catalytic.
OK, you are definitely having happen what I did. Maybe you have a way better draft than I do to get your flue temps up that quick - I am only able to achieve those temps quickly when I have a REALLY thick bed of coals in there (like half way or more up the andirons). I think I’m going to install that flue damper for “emergencies” to kill the draft if needed. It might be a bit more difficult for you since you have a rear exit flue, but where the connector pipe sits in the flue collar, there is about a 1/16” gap all around. I can look down from the back of the stove and see one of three things: When rumbling is happening (either loud or soft), there are flames or a soft glow, respectively. If no rumbling, it’s dark and black down in there.
Mike, that gap may be a big part of your problem - it shouldn’t be there for certain! It may be letting air flow down into the back of the stove and kill the afterburn or accellerate it depending on how well it was able to get going, plus it mixes cooler air with the flue gasses and kills your draft…. I would certainly try to close it up and see if the stove works better for you - I believe the best thing to use on it would probably be refractory cement. As a temporary measure you might get away with cramming a length of rope gasket into the space.
What’s everburn technology? My unit has secondary burn, I don’t have any control over it. I start a fire, make sure there’s a space for the flames to reach the burn tubes up top, as the flames reach the secondary burn tubes secondary burn starts up and in several minutes has spread and I get full secondary burn going. It’s about 15 minutes from lighting the kindling to secondary burn starting, another 5 minutes for it to be going in full swing, and about 30 minutes from lighting the kindling for me to turn down the air and have a nice day.
Everburn must be significantly different. Anyone have a link to explain what the difference is between everburn & secondary burn?
Sounds like their everburn technology is similar to my 1975 or so steel stove, it’s major selling point was that its exhaust system was placed at the bottom rear, with steel plates to force the smoke to have to go through flames & coals before exiting. Its advertisement was pretty much they were more efficient than the competition because of that innovative feature and what sold me to purchased that particular stove. I don’t have the advertisement anymore, but my 1975 steel stove did appear to produce less smoke than others having that feature, it’s interesting VC is doing similar. VC looks to take an extra step with what sounds like another chamber in the back? I guess I’d need to see a diagram of it, to grasp how it’s supposed to work.
Sounds like their everburn technology is similar to my 1975 or so steel stove, their selling point was that they had an exhaust system at the bottom rear which forced the smoke laden exhaust to go through flames & coals before being able to exit, its advertisement was pretty much they were more efficient than the competition by burning the smoke before it exhausts and, is what sold me to purchased that particular stove. I don’t have the advertisement anymore, and my stove certainly did appear to produce less smoke than others, it’s interesting VC is doing similar. VC looks to take an extra step with what sounds like another chamber in the back? I guess I’d need to see a diagram of it, to grasp how it’s supposed to work.
You posted a link to the same thread your posting to now Rhonemas . Have you read the thread yet ? ( now dont ask me which thread )
Sounds like their everburn technology is similar to my 1975 or so steel stove, it’s major selling point was that its exhaust system was placed at the bottom rear, with steel plates to force the smoke to have to go through flames & coals before exiting. Its advertisement was pretty much they were more efficient than the competition because of that innovative feature and what sold me to purchased that particular stove. I don’t have the advertisement anymore, but my 1975 steel stove did appear to produce less smoke than others having that feature, it’s interesting VC is doing similar. VC looks to take an extra step with what sounds like another chamber in the back? I guess I’d need to see a diagram of it, to grasp how it’s supposed to work.
The early messages in this thread have a pretty good explanation, and it isn’t THAT much different from the steel stove you describe, but it is a more refined approach. In your steel stove, the problem was that much of the oxygen had already been consumed when the fuel was initially burned, so that when the smoke was pulled back down through the coals it really didn’t have enough oxygen left to fully combust the remaining fuel gasses.
The VC approach is to use a very high temperature clay (It’s the same stuff they use to line their crucibles in the foundry) to make the back and secondary combustion chambers, which keeps everything very hot, well above the 1200注needed to combust the smoke, they then force the smoke / unburned combustion gasses down through the coal bed into a throat to a secondary burning chamber. At the same time, they are running un-combusted, oxygen rich air through other passages cast into the same ceramic blocks so that the air also becomes superheated. The two streams of superheated gasses are combined in the Everburn chamber where they combust, adding their heat back into the ceramics. The ceramics radiate back into the firebox, further heating the wood and contributing to the fuel gas production, and from there out into the room through the sides of the stove. The key is the addition of the extra air that gives the oxygen needed to combust nearly every last bit of the unburned fuel gasses, and the pre-heating in the ceramics that ensures the temperature stays high enough.
Thus the idea isn’t totally new, but it is a refined and more precise version of it.
OK, you are definitely having happen what I did. Maybe you have a way better draft than I do to get your flue temps up that quick - I am only able to achieve those temps quickly when I have a REALLY thick bed of coals in there (like half way or more up the andirons). I think I’m going to install that flue damper for “emergencies” to kill the draft if needed. It might be a bit more difficult for you since you have a rear exit flue, but where the connector pipe sits in the flue collar, there is about a 1/16” gap all around. I can look down from the back of the stove and see one of three things: When rumbling is happening (either loud or soft), there are flames or a soft glow, respectively. If no rumbling, it’s dark and black down in there.
Mike, that gap may be a big part of your problem - it shouldn’t be there for certain! It may be letting air flow down into the back of the stove and kill the afterburn or accellerate it depending on how well it was able to get going, plus it mixes cooler air with the flue gasses and kills your draft…. I would certainly try to close it up and see if the stove works better for you - I believe the best thing to use on it would probably be refractory cement. As a temporary measure you might get away with cramming a length of rope gasket into the space.
Gooserider
This “gap” is normal, as far as I know. I looked at a lot of stoves when I first started burning wood. The crimped end of the connector sits on top of the tabs inside the flue collar, with the 6” connector slightly smaller than the collar. It only sits down in there an inch or so…just enough to be able to see the glow or flickering, sort of like if you hold two fingers together side by side near your monitor - though they are practically touching, you can still see the glow behind them. Maybe 1/16 ” was too generous…maybe more 1/32…I’ve never heard of anyone packing cement or door gasket back there.
This “gap” is normal, as far as I know. I looked at a lot of stoves when I first started burning wood. The crimped end of the connector sits on top of the tabs inside the flue collar, with the 6” connector slightly smaller than the collar. It only sits down in there an inch or so…just enough to be able to see the glow or flickering, sort of like if you hold two fingers together side by side near your monitor - though they are practically touching, you can still see the glow behind them. Maybe 1/16 ” was too generous…maybe more 1/32…I’ve never heard of anyone packing cement or door gasket back there.
I really don’t think that gap is normal and it could be a real problem, if you can see fire anywhere in your flue or around your flue collar, that’s a problem! Is the flue screwed in, and if it is, are you sure the screws are tight? Also for what its worth, the local stove shop cements around the flue collar on all of their store installed stoves.
The pipe is screwed in there. Hmmmm…maybe another point for VC to add to their operating instructions? Never heard of that and it’s sure not in my manual.
What I do is measure down to the stops and cut my crimped end 1/8” less than the stop so when I silde it in, the rib above the crimp is making a tight seal to the flue collar. I also place a bead of gasket cement just below the rib and that seals it perfectly. This is a common problem found on most stoves .The flue collar can be recessed to the stops 1” but the crimping is 1.5”
If you are seeing fire and extra spacing is the recesses of the crimping. That’s a lot of air getting there, making it much harder to control that stove
If there is an ash clean out door to that flue duct tape it to stop additional air from entering that flue. The ash clean out doors leak quite a bit ,
It would not be the first time they caused or contributed to loosing control of your stove.
The stove should be cool enough when I get home that I can get the hack saw and give it a try. I am a bit skeptical, but I’m not just going to brush you guys off, either. I won’t know if it works immediately due to the temperment of my stove…but if it suddenly starts acting like I think it’s supposed to, you all will have to let me buy you a couple rounds. Just to verify…should I use firebrick cement or the rope gasket cement? I have both. If it would hold, it seems that the rope gasket cement would be easier to hide and keep the stove looking nice (instead of some appalachain quick-fix that appears all too common around here - like using an old washing machine for a mailbox stand).
It will be interesting to see the results of sealing that flue collar. I have never seen a flue collar leak that did anything other than reduce draft through the stove and send too much cool air up the pipe causing creosote deposits in the pipe.
Mike is your damper fully engaged? Is it possible that it is disengaging sometimes? The inconsistency in your flue gas temps is really weird. It is similar to what happened to me early in the year with the stove I’m burning now. The damper would disengage anywhere from 1/2” to fully open then the flue temp would take off. I had to adjust the tension on it to make it work consistantly. Also I want to verify that your flue temps accellerate after engaging the everburn system correct? I want to get all ducks in a row and then I’ll call tech for you. I don’t know why you haven’t recieved a straight forward answer on the operating temps. As mentioned in the other thread I called tech and they told me 600 degree stove top 600 degree flue gas when probe thermometer is set 24” above the stove top. In addition he told me that the rumble is going to be there. Also you are correct in that your internal flue gas temp is roughly twice what your surface temp is. I tested it today. I need to correct the fire box temps I told you I was burning at I am in reality burning in the 400-700 range I discovered that my stove top thermometer is roughly 200 degrees off in the higher temp range readings.
So let me make sure my facts are straight.
- You start a fire get firebox temps in the 450-600 range.
- Engage the everburn system at this point the flue gas temps start running away one you and in addition while the flue gas temps are running away the chimney is smoking badly?
- In order to regain control of the stove you have to close the primary air all the way at which point your flue gas temps drop well below 600 and the stove will begin to burn efficiently?
Mike is your damper fully engaged? Is it possible that it is disengaging sometimes? The inconsistency in your flue gas temps is really weird. It is similar to what happened to me early in the year with the stove I’m burning now. The damper would disengage anywhere from 1/2” to fully open then the flue temp would take off. I had to adjust the tension on it to make it work consistantly. Also I want to verify that your flue temps accellerate after engaging the everburn system correct? I want to get all ducks in a row and then I’ll call tech for you. I don’t know why you haven’t recieved a straight forward answer on the operating temps. As mentioned in the other thread I called tech and they told me 600 degree stove top 600 degree flue gas when probe thermometer is set 24” above the stove top. In addition he told me that the rumble is going to be there. Also you are correct in that your internal flue gas temp is roughly twice what your surface temp is. I tested it today. I need to correct the fire box temps I told you I was burning at I am in reality burning in the 400-700 range I discovered that my stove top thermometer is roughly 200 degrees off in the higher temp range readings.
So let me make sure my facts are straight.
- You start a fire get firebox temps in the 450-600 range.
- Engage the everburn system at this point the flue gas temps start running away one you and in addition while the flue gas temps are running away the chimney is smoking badly?
- In order to regain control of the stove you have to close the primary air all the way at which point your flue gas temps drop well below 600 and the stove will begin to burn efficiently?
With my stove, I am positive the damper is fully closed. It is VERY obvious if it is not - it misses that distinctive “thunk” and the fire acts differently (I actually had a piece of wood block it in the past).
You are correct with your chronology of events, except that when the stove runs away, there is a VERY loud rumbling and NO SMOKE from the chimney. Also, in your last sentence, the flue gas temp (surface) will drop after 10 minues or so (seems like an eternity), the rumbling will eventually die down, my chimney starts smoking badly.
I do have to say, I sealed my connector last night and had better results, but I have had decent results at times in the past, so I don’t want to immediately say “problem solved”. I will keep everyone posted here on my results this weekend.
Here’s a picture of my loaded stove, and one of the setup - if anyone sees anything wrong with this, let me know. This is typical, so if there is a problem, it could be part of what is going wrong. This load would work flawlessly with my dutchwest catalytic…
Another with flash- sort of makes it look like there’s no flame…this particular load did quite well. I had a good stove temp (500), good flue temp (500 surface), and the secondary worked well after a little adjustment of the load a couple of times. I intentially crammed a lot of wood in there to see if my seal made a difference. I tried to avoid making my “tunnel” from front to back to the throat of the everburn. It drives me crazy if I have to be extra careful in making sure there’s a clear path at the bottom of the load from front to back.
Nice installation Mike. First time I’ve seen one from a cat’s eye point of view. Did you do the tile/stone work yourself? It looks especially nice. What types of stone did you use? Do you have a human eye view of the same?
I don’t have a picture that’s small enough to meet the size limit. It’s all tile - it’s the green “Rialto” that you get a Lowes - heavy porcelain that has been smacked with a hammer. It was done just before I bought the house. I would have left the tiles whole, but it works. I eneded up replacing the entire chimney/support package/flashing right after I moved in. It was a 6” flue with adapter going into 8”, which I did not like. The lady also used the cheap pre-fab stuff that you get at lowes. I replaced it with Metalbestos SS. It’s amazing that a 3’ section of the 6” SS pipe weighs more than the 3’ section of the 8” lowes-bought pipe. I think the stuff at lowes is a lower-end selkirk product. I don’t know why they don’t just sell the good stuff everywhere instead of having a cheaper version for wal-mart and lowes? Duh…
FYI…we had subzero temps this past weekend with highs in the teens. My house ranged anywhere from 85 F in the kitchen area to 65 upstairs. Though I was happy with the heat output, I still noted major inconsistency with the operation. Specifically, the amount of smoke generated when reloading with a good bed of coals. It burned very smokey for up to two hours with 500+ stove temp and good flames in the firebox. I am still truly disappointed with the stove in that respect. I don’t just want lots of heat; I also want a clean, efficient burn. The stove manufacturer’s claim of high efficiency and low emissions seems somewhat innacurate based on what I have seen.
With the connector pipe/collar sealed, I have not yet had another “meltdown”, but the flue temp is still above what I would expect (450 F surface temp). Thanks for everyone’s help in figuring out what was causing the problem. As far as I can tell, that was it. I think VC should note that the connector pipe should be sealed in their manual - this did not cause a problem with the catalytic model, and appears to be a bigger problem for the everburn stoves. A big lesson for me, hopefully others reading this thread with the same problem will be able to possibly fix their runaway stoves.
Unfortunately in my situation, consistent, clean burning operation is very important to me. Though I might be losing a bit of claimed efficiency, my wife and I have decided to change stoves out AGAIN. This time, we are going with a Hearthstone Heritage. The switch will be made next saturday. If anyone is interested, I will provide a back to back comparison of heat output, burn times, ease of operation, and emissions between the Hearthstone and Dutchwest non-cat. Tooo bad VC can’t make an “extra large” catalytic dutchwest with a 6” flue. That’s what I would be going to…
The dutchwest is going to be exchanged - I’m actually coming out a bit better than if I had bought the HEarthstone a year ago instead of the dutchwest…
The dealer is taking it on trade, he has a buyer that has been looking for a used one. He is selling me a Heritage that was used for a few days before being returned (still full warranty and dealer support). All said, I will be looking at coughing up another $650. Why, are you looking for a used one?
