Robert,
Not that you need any more, but here’s a suggestion. Look at what you have in front of you and hook the thing up. Get the heat from the garn into the zones the quickest and easiest way, using the least amount of pipe and fittings and build a fire in your new garn. Run it for a while and then you can evaluate how it behaves. I wouldn’t change a thing on your existing system, it works doesn’t it? Leave the damned expansion tank where it is for now. At least you can get some heat while gathering hard data (not from a book or cyberspace) that is pertinent to YOUR system, not only theories. Agonizing over the exact positioning of every fitting and component can be frustrating, I found out and you are too, but it becomes easier to understand when you see it run. You will also find that it’s not that big of a deal to not get it perfect the first time.
Mine is up and running and many things about the set-up are theoretically wrong but work just fine. I plan to change some things based on what I see happening, that will no doubt improve performance. But in the meantime, my needs are being met, my oil burner doesn’t fire, ever, and that was the goal. I’ll see what happens when it gets colder and plan adjustments/changes accordingly.
I think after getting varied and often conflicting advice from here and other places, there comes a time to make a move and find out for sure what’s what. Everyone I talked with about my system, here and elsewhere, had advice and some were waay too focused on promoting snazzy controls, some wanted to talk at me about replacing part or all of my existing system. These guys wanted to sell me stuff, imho. Others wanted to talk about theories and books and were, as far as I’m concerned, trying to impress me with their great knowledge. Others were just showing off in trying to butt heads with other contributors here and/or their competitors out in the field and it got ridiculous.
Hook her up and find out for yourself!! It’s snowing out
Robert,
Not that you need any more, but here’s a suggestion. Look at what you have in front of you and hook the thing up. Get the heat from the garn into the zones the quickest and easiest way, using the least amount of pipe and fittings and build a fire in your new garn. Run it for a while and then you can evaluate how it behaves. I wouldn’t change a thing on your existing system, it works doesn’t it? Leave the damned expansion tank where it is for now. At least you can get some heat while gathering hard data (not from a book or cyberspace) that is pertinent to YOUR system, not only theories. Agonizing over the exact positioning of every fitting and component can be frustrating, I found out and you are too, but it becomes easier to understand when you see it run. You will also find that it’s not that big of a deal to not get it perfect the first time.
Mine is up and running and many things about the set-up are theoretically wrong but work just fine. I plan to change some things based on what I see happening, that will no doubt improve performance. But in the meantime, my needs are being met, my oil burner doesn’t fire, ever, and that was the goal. I’ll see what happens when it gets colder and plan adjustments/changes accordingly.
I think after getting varied and often conflicting advice from here and other places, there comes a time to make a move and find out for sure what’s what. Everyone I talked with about my system, here and elsewhere, had advice and some were waay too focused on promoting snazzy controls, some wanted to talk at me about replacing part or all of my existing system. These guys wanted to sell me stuff, imho. Others wanted to talk about theories and books and were, as far as I’m concerned, trying to impress me with their great knowledge. Others were just showing off in trying to butt heads with other contributors here and/or their competitors out in the field and it got ridiculous.
Hook her up and find out for yourself!! It’s snowing out
There is a point when you just have to grab the wrench and go to it. Your already farther along with your understanding than I was when I started…use a couple more unions which will make changing a few things easier if need be.
Robert, sorry for my comments eariler. Your story has been wonderful to follow and I am glad that you chose the Garn its is a wonderful invention. However I agree 100% with the two posters above my post here. A time comes when you just have to grab the tools and go to work.
If you are getting to confused then maybe you should hire a professional HVAC tech. and have them hook it up. 15 months and winding down, This thing should of been up and running 10 months ago. I don’t have that much patients knowing that I spent that amount of money and not having a return on my investment yet! I myself work for the public sector but have the mindset and work ethic of a small business owner in the private sector, and believe me sometimes those two don’t mix well!!
No apology needed. I know that for many on this site, the idea that any project that might take fifteen months is beyond reasonable. I need to clarify that I have not been working solidly for that period of time. I have a number of projects going, all of which are seasonal in nature. Gaye and I both do side work to afford to be able to live out here. When I learned that it was $8k to install the Garn, we just accepted the notion I would have to learn my way through it and buy the materials as we went along. I do like to be frugal, but I can’t bring myself to buy cheap parts or cut corners on such a fine machine. That, coupled with the fact that I work with all the speed and dexterity of a glacier just makes patience a virtue. Thanks for writing back and I also apologize for being so sharp in my tone.
Robert I’m with you. Most things that I just do quickly to get it done need redoing and I regret not doing it right in the first place. I think you’re doing great and agree with the pay as you go.
I know that for many on this site, the idea that any project that might take fifteen months is beyond reasonable.
What? Only 15 months? My building permit for my house was pulled in 1990 and we just got the last plumbing inspection on the septic system done this month.
I know that for many on this site, the idea that any project that might take fifteen months is beyond reasonable.
What? Only 15 months? My building permit for my house was pulled in 1990 and we just got the last plumbing inspection on the septic system done this month.
How in the world did you get them to keep the permit open that long.? Around here they are calling within 3 months, threatening to cancel the permit and make you buy another one.
How in the world did you get them to keep the permit open that long.?
I did have to renew my permit this year to get the inspections for the septic and plumbing. Permits are good for 2 years here. The CEO here is a good enough guy I felt safe in joking that I thought they were good for 2 decades, not 2 years.
In the intervening years we have cleared 12 acres of pasture, built a 2-story barn, put up a mile of fence, and cleared more land and put in a 45 tree orchard,and landscaped a bunch of boulders and stumps into the semblance of a yard populated by a bunch of Asian trees and shrubs that weren’t supposed to be hardy here (well they were right about some of them). Not everybody’s order of priorities but we’re now getting around to finishing the house. Been living in the summer cabin these almost 30 years.
So to answer your question, they left if open because it got lost in the process of computerizing the town records and they didn’t catch it until I brought it up. Won’t be able to get away with that again.
I have stayed out of the discussion so as not to add another “cook in the kitchen”. I concur with both notions recently expressed that you can correct anything you do incorrectly after you see how the system runs, AND you can do things in a manner that will REDUCE the likelihood of having to re-engineer everything. At times like these I usually put down my sketches, grab a beer, and go work on my truck . . .
FWIW - I would leave your existing system 99% as is for now. Forget pumping away for the moment (actually until next summer). My suggestion to get you started in the least amount of time with the least amount of likely rework is as follows:
Cut into the existing manifold SUPPLY leg down stream of your existing TACO 007 before the first loads (of course). Install a pair of closely spaced Tees. Now install your Grundfos 15-58 on the firsy Tee (leg CLOSEST to the Burnham). Pump counter-flow through your HX as you have drawn it, and return the flow to the second Tee. Done with plumbing, and you are sending the hottest water (transferred from the GARN) to your loads. This method has the coolest water going back through your Burnham, rather than heating up that standby furnace any more than necessary. You will likely have to set your low temp cut in on your Burnham aquastat a bit lower to prevent it from firing if the return temps dip a bit lower than they did previously. I would use an additional aquastat (surface mount) to control power to the Grundfos so that if the GARN temps drop below your threshold, you stop sending water to the HX. We can tackle that wiring after you get the plumbing done. It’s not hard.
Of course I will not be at all offended if you ignore my suggestion and choose to follow another path. It is my opinion that the above is the simplest way to get your GARN integrated AND keep the Burnham as an automatic backup.
I guess I need to go back and read that book again. “Pumping Away” seems to be beyond my comprehension level. Is this closer?
I would say go with this setup but don’t worry about moving the BH pump if it’s on the cold return side now leave it there, better actually.
The expansion tank should be on the suction/inlet side of the pumps as shown. If it is not now That looks like the only modification you would need to make on the
original system.
This is about as easy as it can get, cut two tee’s in, one on the hot/supply side to the loads and one on the cold/return side of the loads.
Treat the house side of the heat exchanger as another boiler, mirror the plumbing of the BH.
Burnham is not heated by garn and the original system is hardly changed.
I don’t subscribe to the “we do it right cause we do it twice” group but I think I WOULD leave as much of the original system intact as possible.
This is similar to the one in post 47 that heaterman already said to run with, just a matter of where the expansion tank is located.
Okay, it is in place and this is the design that I decided upon. While I have not tested the Garn side, the house side is running and running well. There are a couple of questions that I have though. I replaced the Taco 007-5 with the three speed Grundfos 15-58. I started the system with the Grundfos on low speed. Is that okay? It seems to be running very well, but the weather is nice. Now I need to work out the controls. This appears to improve my “pumping away” issue. Am I correct in thinking that? Thanks for all the input over the past few days.
Your diagram in post #71 (last post from where I’m viewing) looks like a good place to start running.
“Perfection is our ideal, not our goal”... If I had a buck for every time I’ve said that out loud to myself I could afford to hire someone to do the work for me.
My wife has said to me more times than I care to hear, “You’re building a house, not a piano”.
But I just can’t help the nagging thought that the HX to the Garn would be better counterflow if the hot from the Garn came in at the bottom and flowed up (as the arrow shows) and back to the Garn from the top. That would make the colors blue-to-blue and red-to-red and not ‘look’ intuitive but if I’m right that’s a small easily implemented detail that would give some significant improvement.
Maybe by the time I find the bottom of this coffee cup it will look different but someone double-check me here, huh?
Good catch, the arrows are correct. The house side is correct, The Garn side needs the red on the bottom blue on the top.
Remember the Garn side red is inlet, blue outlet. House side red is outlet, blue inlet
The flow is shown correctly just the hot and cold is backwards on Garn side.
A carpenter ,I once worked for, would often say to me with a deep voice, when he’d catch me fussin’ with a miter joint on a piece of baseboard going into the back of a closet or something, “you ain’t buildin’ a watch Stanley”
I made an error in my last drawing. This is how the flow works on the HX. The work cutting up the old system took all day yesterday, but my barn cat learned a few new cuss words and so it was well worth it.
