Hakusan - 02 November 2009 10:00 PM

Why would intermittent positive loads (read: solar and wind) would be any more problematic than the intermittent negative loads (read: folks using electricity). Utilities have never liked other people generating their own power. A 2.5k watt wind turbine is hardly a load that is going to cause the utility problems, just as opening up a store does not present problems.

Because the negative loads are both very small changes - everything in your house combined is a tiny fraction of a percent of the total, and tend to be predictable in large numbers (i.e. people go to work in the morning, expect to see a ramp-up in power demand in the business areas around 9:00AM, etc.)  Given a large enough experience base, which the utility has, they can predict moment to moment demand with great accuracy.  Major consumers are almost always also quite predictable, and tend to be very steady.  If a major consumer is going to be doing a change they generally alert the power company that it’s coming… 

Power production from solar and, to an even greater extent, wind is NOT predictable.  If it were coming from lots and lots of point sources, the way the loads do, it would probably be less of an issue, but when you have a big single turbine it can be a lot harder to adjust for changes in that supply.

Net metered power in small quantities doesn’t upset things, but big sources can…

As an analogy, when they first build Foxboro Stadium, the town had a major issue with their water pressure - it would drop to zero at half-time, as every fixture in the place got repeatedly flushed… (Beer MUST be Returned!) They ended up having to put in several hundred thousand gallons of water tanks to supply the half time demand and keep the town pressure steady.  But this was a predictable demand - OTOH a big turbine could be seen as putting an equivalent electrical load / demand on the grid as it ramps up and down, but it would not be predictable so they would have to be ready to deal with it at any time, with no notice…

Gooserider

Household sized wind/PV systems are not that large—they are after all scaled to the household requirements. I don’t see that as a real issue for utilities. If you are talking about large turbines, they are not as unpredictable is all that. They are usually mounted where turbulence from ground-based obstructions is minimized. So all you have is the current weather. I can get that from the weather channel right now. The output from large turbines can also be controlled—they do not have to work at maximum output at max wind speeds. The bottom line (no pun intended) is that utilities don’t like others being hooked up to them. Look at Denmark if you want to see the “hazards” of connecting turbines to the grid. They seem to be doing this very well.

I don’t even need to read the fine print of this thread to observe—

Bozos are the ULTIMATE un-deplete-able resource. 

Especially the people who claim to be “green” but throw a galactically-huge hissy-fit if any piece of infrastructure that would actually contribute to sustainability might be sited somewhere within their oh-so-aesthetically-sensitive-and-sophisticated perceptual orbit. 

They apparently prefer mountaintop-removal mining for coal burning power plants a long way away where they’ll never see, or take hugely-fossil-fuel-combusting jet flights to anywhere near seeing, after smugly driving their Prius-es (or is that Priii- where’s Stentor, the guy who knows Latin?) to the airport for their newest jaunt to “eco travel” on the other side of the globe.

If only Bozosity could be tapped to yield energy

never underestimate the power of nimbys in large numbers.
my parents live .25 miles from the big windmill in newburyport, MA, you wouldn’t believe the fuss in that “green” new age city, the windmill sits in the industrial park next to rt 1, a wind study said there were at least 14 more sites in the industrial park that would work for wind. So they put an end to any of that foolishness in Newburyport, Newbury, and Rowley.
I always loved the fact that MA passed a law that they couldn’t use the power from Seabrook Nuke Station, so Newburyport had (haven’t rowed there recently) three huge diesel generators on the riverbank leaving a huge plume of exhaust that you could see for miles, to cover their A/C loads for the summer.
I believe the ultimate “green” energy is tidal, it never stops, and in quite a few places you get a ripping current. The lower Merrimac in Newburyport has a 9 kt current during the run, Hull gut, the Piscataqua river, it is like rowing on a treadmill to fight the currents there. you think the “greens” will let that happen?

Dune - 01 November 2009 09:45 PM

With laws like this energy independance as a nation is impossible.

Really?

We export coal.  43% of our power
We arguably import minor amounts of natural gas, set to end as the new deposits in Louisiana and Pennsylvania come on line.  We import mainly because some countries produce it for free (as a byproduct).  19%
Nuclear Fuel - I have no idea where that comes from - 20%
Renewable - 15%
Diesel - 3%

I don’t really see any need for energy independence for our electric supply.  The only place we can improve is possibly on nuclear and eliminating diesel. 

Now energy independence for our cars is probably a good idea.  But that wasn’t what anybody was talking about was it?

there are limits to how much juice the grid can move at any given time and we hover near the peak for a good portion of the time (yeah for poor infrastructure) leaving littel room for variable input like solar and wind, at this point anyways. You’d think it’d be easier to put up your own little whirlygig, but someone wants to stop you. We just need to set up power consumers (large scale) so that they can take advantage of alt energy when it is available. Its not really different from the mentality many people adopt when they get solar water heaters. Set up you washer and dishwasher and shower time for when you have the most energy being created, then you get the best results.

pybyr - 02 November 2009 11:08 PM

I don’t even need to read the fine print of this thread to observe—

Bozos are the ULTIMATE un-deplete-able resource. 

Especially the people who claim to be “green” but throw a galactically-huge hissy-fit if any piece of infrastructure that would actually contribute to sustainability might be sited somewhere within their oh-so-aesthetically-sensitive-and-sophisticated perceptual orbit. 

They apparently prefer mountaintop-removal mining for coal burning power plants a long way away where they’ll never see, or take hugely-fossil-fuel-combusting jet flights to anywhere near seeing, after smugly driving their Prius-es (or is that Priii- where’s Stentor, the guy who knows Latin?) to the airport for their newest jaunt to “eco travel” on the other side of the globe.

If only Bozosity could be tapped to yield energy

True, the Bozone layer is very thick. It could soon blot out the sun, proving the neocons contention that there is no global warming, and removing so much ammo from Lush Windbag that the turbine planned for just outside his mouth will have to be cancelled.

mbcijim - 03 November 2009 04:25 PM

Dune - 01 November 2009 09:45 PM

With laws like this energy independance as a nation is impossible.

Really?

We export coal.  43% of our power
We arguably import minor amounts of natural gas, set to end as the new deposits in Louisiana and Pennsylvania come on line.  We import mainly because some countries produce it for free (as a byproduct).  19%
Nuclear Fuel - I have no idea where that comes from - 20%
Renewable - 15%
Diesel - 3%

I don’t really see any need for energy independence for our electric supply.  The only place we can improve is possibly on nuclear and eliminating diesel. 

Now energy independence for our cars is probably a good idea.  But that wasn’t what anybody was talking about was it?

It was what I was talking about. See also post #12 in this thread. Not just energy indendance for our cars but for all of our energy needs. Without our oil money, many terrorists would be unfunded, in additon to lowering our trade deficit. Furthermore, whether you believe in global warming or not, you have to agree that burning fossil fuels, especialy coal, causes air polution, or are you denying that too?

Gooserider explained it pretty well in response to the question of intermittent loads.  One key additional point - at every instant in time, the amount of power generated is equal to the amount consumed - excess doesn’t go anywhere to be stored (with very few pumped power storage systems as the exceptions).  So the utility is constantly monitoring usage and adjusting generation output, or raising/lowering voltage, to account for shifts in demand.  Since there are a lot of people using power, dips and peaks in demand tend to average out pretty well, and usage usually increases or decreases in predictable ways at certain times of the day.

So, imagine that you are the guy who is in charge of making sure that there is always the exact correct amount of electricity generated at any given moment in time.  Well, for you, predictability is the most important thing.  You want to know that you have a huge amount of base load generation (read coal and nuclear power plants) that just cranks away at 100% output 24/7 - these plants take hours to bring on-line and can’t be turned on with short notice.  Then, you want some additional generating capacity that can be added quickly as needs change - things like hydro or natural gas fired generators.  These can be brought up in minutes.  Your backup is to bring power in on high voltage transmission lines to fill any gaps.  The whole mentality of the power utilities is built around thinking like this, and renewables link wind (when the wind blows it blows) or solar (their worst nightmare - clouds cover the solar arrays) cause problems in large numbers.  If the wind generators and solar arrays are just 1% of the capacity, then no big deal - it’s in the “noise” to them - but when it gets very large, it causes real problems with the system they have set up. 

Enter the “Smart Grid” - instead of blithely ignoring demand and trying to match generation with demand instantaneously, you manage the demand when it spikes.  Or take advantage of excess power when it happens to be available.  If you have an electric hot water storage tank, there are a lot of options as to when it gets heated.  It can get turned off when generation capacity is tight, or turned on when there is excess power to be “soaked up” (i.e. the wind is blowing really well on a sunny day).  The problem is that you, as an electricity consumer, have no incentive to care about this at all - you pay a flat rate regardless of time of use.  If the utility knew when excess power was available, told you (or your appliances) that they could get a great rate on this excess power, then it could get used when it was available, and the ability of the grid to consist of more renewables would be greatly increased.  Greatly increased, but not to 100% renewables - you still need some base load generation that can always be counted on UNLESS you accept that your power will be shut off at random times with no recourse (probably ok in the third world, but not in the US) when the wind isn’t blowing, the sun isn’t shining, etc.  Or, instead of having the base load generation, we can just string thousands and thousands of miles of high capacity high voltage transmission lines to connect the East Coast with North Dakota and New Mexico or whatever and take advantage of their wind, or the sun in New Mexico, or whatever.  Problem is, these cost $1 billion per 100 miles - not very cost effective.  Much more cost effective is to have some base load generation near to where you live.  Most people complain about their electric rates now - imagine if they doubled or tripled - that’s what would happen if you try to go 100% renewable.  But 60% renewable is possible without breaking the bank provided you have a Smart Grid. 

Look at Denmark if you want to see the “hazards” of connecting turbines to the grid. They seem to be doing this very well.

True - Denmark has huge wind capacity, and on paper they generate much more than 20% of their power with wind.  They also have one of the most extensive high voltage transmission line grids in the world that they use to export their wind power when they can’t use it all.  Other countries nearby benefit from this, but if every country did this, it would be difficult if not impossible for everyone to have this much wind generation capacity.  There are some practical limits.  I wish there were not, but there are.