Mo Heat - 25 June 2007 06:04 PM

Keyman, I’m going to look for some of that bronze flashing next trip to the hardware store. This place was re-roofed about 5.5 years ago. Above that bay window is the worst looking place I’ve seen. Everything else looks pretty good to my eye, which is admittedly uneducated in roofing, but the section over the bay window looks bad even to me, at least, it looks unusual. 20 or 25 yr Tamco shingles IIRC. Bitchethane? Man, names don’t get much cooler than that! 

Mo… (as a locksmith)You would love to see the look on someone’s face when you tell them “Gotta run back to the shop for some sex bolts...” lol

“Locksmiths get it right...Cause’ they hang alotta hardware with sex bolts...” lol

The stuff you’ve been doing so far looks good, but I’m not sure it’s on the right end of the problem… I’m not an expert on the construction details, but I do know that water generally does not flow uphill, or even just horizontally around corners.  Maybe I’m stating the obvious, but it looks like a great deal of the work you’ve been doing has been at the bottom edge of the window, and I really doubt that water has been going IN at that point.

I’d be suspecting that what you are seeing under the windows is water getting in at a higher point and flowing down to under the window where it is trapped while trying to get back OUT!  If this is the case you might actually be making things worse by the excellent sealing job you’ve been doing under the window, that in effect is making a more effective water trap.

I’d suggest spending a lot more effort on going through the upper parts of the window, and the roof over it, to make sure that there is no water getting IN…

Gooserider

3” ain’t too bad Mo. The trick is to see if there is any horizontal or vertical cracks above where the edge of the flashing up behind the cedar is. And vertical joints as well.
If you can see in any crack or joint, and see the top edge of that flashing. The water can see it too and get in above the top edge of the flashing. Usually on a certain driving rain that would pound against the cedar & flashing. But if it looks tight, 3” should be sufficient. I am wondering how you saw the flashing guestimate the 3”.
If you were seeing it through a crack or joint, then water driven rain will find it also.

The urethane caulk does an excellent job of sealing. Lasts a long time also. I would still suggest a drip edge flashing up a couple 2-3” under the roof edge, then bent down over the window tops with a 1/2” kick out or “drip edge” to be specific. But tis hard to tell all from pictures, well not as easy as seeing it in person. If its tight along where the window meets the siding. You’ll be ok for a while at least. But it should have had a drip edge flashing under the cedar & over the window edge to seal it off. Then caulk would not have been needed.
After looking at the full picture, I really don’t see alot of water getting to that small bay roof. If you can make sure the top of the bay roof meets the siding is tight, and the lower edge over the windows is tight. you should be golden then. That roof just will not see enough water to cause a major floodstorm in those windows.

Pretty much same goes as missing flashing at bottom of other window. Where u cut & replaced siding & caulked. Will most likely be trouble free for some time hopefully now. But windows should have a base flashing at the bottom that the window actually sits on, with the same type drop down & drip edge. Same at the top with a pc of header flashing. At this point that may or may not be involved. I have snuck pcs of flashing over or under windows before. But a few tight spots make for a miserable day.
Just be careful NOT to caulk natural drainage paths built into the window system(s). Yes I was not overly concerned with the modular channels, as they run vertical and are made to drain naturally. The channels are basically outside the house or room. Almost all windows, doors, sliders etc, have drainage provisions. You want to make sure to keep these clear & clean.

Agway sells a really good granular product to kill ants etc. Just a pour a lil in when putting your wood back in then forget about it. Might even be the stuff you mentioned. My mom uses it and swears by it.

It seems to me you have the leaky drain & these windows back under control and performing as expected. If ya want, get your hose out and douse the top of the bay window roof, the siding where the flashing from the bay roof meets it. anywhere you feel might have been a leak path or problem. I do however suggest starting at the lowest point and spraying your way up. checking periodically at each height advancement. If you test with water at the top first, it could come in there and drain lower, giving you some guesswork as to where it originated from. Starting low and checking as you go up. You will know exactly at what height or level the water is coming in, if it ia at all. Still sounds like you solved 2 major PITA problems. Thats a great feeling, I know, I am on red alert every other day here” Oh Mr. fixit man”. But it feels great when a problem is fixed and you can breath a sigh of relief along with feeling some pride in a job well done. I just hate fixing builders or previous homeowners F-ups. But we all do, and you will with any house.

If ya have any other questions you have a couple folks here that can try and give answers. Let us know the next project, so we can help prepare for the remedies if able .

I was thinking the same thing, the bottoms of those windows should have some kind of a drip edge.  Water can, and does flow up hill proof being my roof.  Look at the picture.  My roof didn’t have enough pitch the water would come down, loop back towards the house and come down behind the gutter (only in certain areas).  During rainy weather, I took a ladder and noticed where the water was dripping behind the gutter was the same places I couldn’t see water dripping off the roof into the gutter.  So, it was working up and looping around.  The fix, was to make a drip edge that went underneath the last shingle that hung into the gutter and the problem was solved.  I think any rain hitting the window in your case won’t drip, it looks like the water will have an easier time going backwards towards your house underneath and then you can hope it will fall down the shingles.  I wouldn’t depend on caulk in that location, use some sort of flashing but, I know very little about caulking, flashing or water proofing for that matter.

Damn good diagrams man!!!!! Your correct. Most think water will just run down & drip or fall off. But it will follow the lines of the object it is running down.
The “gutter helmet” or other gutter cover that let leaves fall off but the water follows the curves into the troughs is a perfect example. On roof edged with gutter, the other problem is in winter with daytime thaw and re freezing. The gutter get filled and actually build up higher than the gutter & roof with freshly frozen run off. This is damning.
This is the reason for ice & water shield at the last 3 feet of roof above the gutter. That way if water does freeze & back up under the shingles, it does not get to the substrate and rot the wood out. Drip edge is cheap, and its performance makes it worth 100x its cost.

Been a while, but thought I’d update my window situation. I’ve been through several iterations of caulking with less than success and I’ve discovered at least two other windows leaking in a similar fashion as the bay window. All are exposed to rain with little shelter from roof overhang, etc. It looks to me like a poor window design.

I’m no expert, but the metal window bottoms seem to channel or wick water behind the bottom boards. Because of the window design (circa 1998 Pella), any attempt to add a bottom drip edge would still rely upon caulk to keep water from wicking behind the lower board (cedar), so I’ve simply caulked things and gone to an additional sledge hammer approach. I removed and beveled one of the 2 x 8 cedar bottom boards to promote “drain away” technology. I also made some “not too ugly” visors out of roof flashing and mounted them above three of the offending windows to minimize driven rain exposure.

The three visors that are up (the experimental bay visor needs to be taken down, trimmed, and the cedar strips stained) have not had enough rain to determine exactly how effective they are. In the one driven rain I’ve experienced, the bay window did seem to leak much less, but still leaked a little. I think even the vertical channels may be leaking at this point and I may try and pry one of them off if I get fed up enough and see if I can caulk them back into place with a better seal. Disappointing, but I think I can live with this trace moisture rather than replace a zillion high-dollar windows.

I’m rebuilding the bay window sill with that plastic board stuff that looks like painted wood (see: photos in link).

Thanks to everyone for the help and encouragement.

Here’s some pictures:

http://picasaweb.google.com/moheatmail/20080811WindowVisors?authkey=KQiK8iuGu8A

Pella is a pretty good company and often will send out a rep to investigate. Most of the time it is not the fault of the window, but the installation. Your windows are similar to ours, but our Pellas are all wood. 

You might want to start with a simpler window assembly than the bay for the first try. Odds are if they made a mistake in installation, it was repeated on the other windows. It’s hard to tell without removing the siding around the windows, but I am suspecting an error in the sequence of flashing that is letting water go behind the window. This might happen if the house membrane was behind instead of on top of the upper nailing fin. That’s just a guess though. Without removing the siding around the affected window it’s hard to see what is happening behind the siding. The window could be installed correctly, but water could be traveling down behind the siding from a higher point until it hits the window.

FWIW, a conventional window sill goes uphill from the outside edge towards the window body. And most importantly, there is a kerf (groove) about 1/2” in from the edge on the underside to prevent the laminar flow of water running over the edge and back towards the house.

PS: How is the hillside stabilization project going? What was the solution there?

I still haven’t gotten past the wringing of hands and the gnashing of teeth on the hill stabilization project or the deck repair. I’m currently cleaning out the garage and basement so I can have the termites evicted. Where did all this stuff come from and why am I certain I’ll need it in the future when I haven’t needed it in the last 10 years?. It never ends.