A better pellet experience

[smwilliamson]

I was talking to the CEO of a large pellet company the other day and was trying to impart on him all of the wasted opportunities he has with his customer base. You see, many companies have a great pellet. Even the some of the marginal pellets out there are 100x better now that PFI has come along.

Is having a low ash high heat pellet really the be all end off of consumer choice? How about pellets that are delivered in a POD for all of those with storage space restrictions? What about a message on the bag that educates the consumer about best burning practices? How about a consumer loyalty program where the kids of families could design the art on the next bag? What about a QR code on the bag that brings consumers to the product Facebook page? How about a new bagging system that creates a sturdier bag with less plastic just by creating an air locked bag? What about vegetable based plastic for the bags? How about paper bags?

Who runs these companies anyway? Nike, Method, Ben and Jerry's found ways to stand apart, do good work and become trend setters....who is the pellet company going to be. Everything just seems so much the same. There needs to be some other value besides the pellets themselves, don't you think?

 

[thedude110]

High heat low ash is pretty much what I want. I wish it was easier to get a "sampler" ton.

God knows I don't need the kid's art on my pellet bag.

I get your point, though -- there's no pellet company (maybe Okanagan) that creates desire/false-need like industry leading brands in other fields.

 

[DexterDay]

I had some bags of Tidy Timbers that described the "Burn" of there pellets and what to do...

If the burn was dirty/black, brownish/grey, or greyish/white, it would tell you to adjust the air (whichever way it needed to go) and/or adjust the fuel. To achieve the desired "Grey" ash...

But yeah Scott.... There are many opportunities to improve the market and product....

 

[smwilliamson]

I'm seriously thinking about developing my own brand...we'll see.

 

[smwilliamson]

there's no pellet company (maybe Okanagan) that creates desire/false-need like industry leading brands in other fields.

Okanagan managed to come out on top with great salesmanship, a fantastic product that was also predictable year to year and the support of their dealers who really needed a top end soft pellet choice...at a time when their really wasn't much else in the soft pellet market. For a decade or more the common message was "Hardwood" pellets. It was touted by owner's manuals too. Okies have a lot of competition now but until someone starts to innovate the market, there will not be so much in the way of change.

 

[DexterDay]

Emerald Ash Borer is headed your way? Gonna be a lot in the way of wasted wood.

Its a mess here because of it... Its not a softy, but it a good wood.

With your following, I dont think that your pellet would do bad. Your customers, plus the people on here would be quite a base of individuals? ?

 

[smwilliamson]

Emerald Ash Borer...

What is that? A beetle yes? From the EAB website....

Where did the emerald ash borer come from?
The natural range of Agrilus planipennis, or the emerald ash borer, is eastern Russia, northern China, Japan, and Korea. Before June of 2002, it had never been found in North America.

How did it get here?
We don't know for sure, but it most likely came in ash wood used for stabilizing cargo in ships or for packing or crating heavy consumer products.

Great, USSC probably brought it over from the skids their Chinese stoves were crated on...

 

[DexterDay]

What is that? A beetle yes? From the EAB website....

Where did the emerald ash borer come from?
The natural range of Agrilus planipennis, or the emerald ash borer, is eastern Russia, northern China, Japan, and Korea. Before June of 2002, it had never been found in North America.

How did it get here?
We don't know for sure, but it most likely came in ash wood used for stabilizing cargo in ships or for packing or crating heavy consumer products.

Great, USSC probably brought it over from the skids their Chinese stoves were crated on...

Yeah, its a borer bettle that has killed most of the Ash trees here in the Northeast part of the Country. Michigan, Ohio, and now Pennsylvania is being swept by the little bugger..... On its continued trip East, it may only be a short while before its in the New England area.

The destruction left behind is amazing. Everywhere you look around here, there are dead standing ash trees. It has made for some good firewood lately, but the dead trees everywhere are not appealing to the eyes

There are treatments that can be given to the trees to try and save them. With the advances in treatment, it may not reach your area. I hope it doesnt......

 

[jtakeman]

Even the some of the marginal pellets out there are 100x better now that PFI has come along.

How so,

Up until just recently. Any pellet maker could send in the best stuff they had for a sample. And them market whatever crap came off the mills. I can't count all the brands that had super long pellets that hit the market. We'll out of spec. Even with the current standards, I'm betting we still see out of spec goods being shipped.

Last I knew, Inferno was a PFI qualified manufacturer. Need I say more?? Some of the best stuff I have encountered doesn't even carry a PFI label.

 

[Don2222]

I'm seriously thinking about developing my own brand...we'll see.

If you design a bag, then where will you buy or build you pellet mill?

I think pellet suppliers must be more green themselves by offering bulk sales! ! ! Granted they must have an expensive truck with a big vac and long hose to blow the pellets into the customer's bulk storage. They also have to offer bulk delivery at a cheaper price! ! ! Right now I can buy the pellets at the LowWalDepots cheaper than the pellet suppliers like woodpellets.com! Due to PFI there is not much difference in quality from the big box stores now just a big difference in Price!

So why would I buy a bulk storage tank if it does not save money? The government should give us a big tax break on a storage silo. They did on the stoves! At least they used too. Why no more? ?

 

[Lousyweather]

If you design a bag, then where will you buy or build you pellet mill?

I think pellet suppliers must be more green themselves by offering bulk sales! ! ! Granted they must have an expensive truck with a big vac and long hose to blow the pellets into the customer's bulk storage. They also have to offer bulk delivery at a cheaper price! ! ! Right now I can buy the pellets at the LowWalDepots cheaper than the pellet suppliers like woodpellets.com! Due to PFI there is not much difference in quality from the big box stores now just a big difference in Price!

So why would I buy a bulk storage tank if it does not save money? The government should give us a big tax break on a storage silo. They did on the stoves! At least they used too. Why no more? ?

and as a dealer, Don, I sure am not going to buy an expensive truck, and silo, and conveyance system TO the truck, without customers out there with bulk bins! Given the price difference between bulk pellets and bagged, which used to be no more than $15/ton difference, its pretty hard to justify the "build it and they will come" scenario here. More green? sure, but while folks like the idea of "green", they rarely will PAY for green".....

 

[smwilliamson]

If you design a bag, then where will you buy or build you pellet mill?

I think pellet suppliers must be more green themselves by offering bulk sales! ! ! Granted they must have an expensive truck with a big vac and long hose to blow the pellets into the customer's bulk storage. They also have to offer bulk delivery at a cheaper price! ! ! Right now I can buy the pellets at the LowWalDepots cheaper than the pellet suppliers like woodpellets.com! Due to PFI there is not much difference in quality from the big box stores now just a big difference in Price!

So why would I buy a bulk storage tank if it does not save money? The government should give us a big tax break on a storage silo. They did on the stoves! At least they used too. Why no more? ?

You missed out, NH was comping 30% on whole home pellet heating systems with bulk storage.

 

[jtakeman]

Due to PFI there is not much difference in quality from the big box stores now just a big difference in Price!

I'm still having a had time believing PFI had much to do with it. Box store wars are just that. Box stores fighting each other with prices. Plus the pellets you see at the box store are just about the same pellet at the pellet house in a different bag. The mills wanted in, Less dollar per ton, But in a higher volume of sales.

IMHO what got better product coming from the mills is sites like this and our word of mouth. If a mill was selling junk, We didn't see them around too long.

Until PFI started their spot checks(which wasn't until this spring-After EPA became involved!) there was little they knew about crap goods heading to market. Even if you sent info about garbage product, PFI would do little to back the end user. Most times you wouldn't even get a reply!

 

[thedude110]

If what you folks are saying about general pellet equivalency is true, the Scott's point about marketing is all the more timely.

 

[MSmith66]

I was talking to the CEO of a large pellet company the other day and was trying to impart on him all of the wasted opportunities he has with his customer base. You see, many companies have a great pellet. Even the some of the marginal pellets out there are 100x better now that PFI has come along.

Is having a low ash high heat pellet really the be all end off of consumer choice? How about pellets that are delivered in a POD for all of those with storage space restrictions? What about a message on the bag that educates the consumer about best burning practices? How about a consumer loyalty program where the kids of families could design the art on the next bag? What about a QR code on the bag that brings consumers to the product Facebook page? How about a new bagging system that creates a sturdier bag with less plastic just by creating an air locked bag? What about vegetable based plastic for the bags? How about paper bags?

Who runs these companies anyway? Nike, Method, Ben and Jerry's found ways to stand apart, do good work and become trend setters....who is the pellet company going to be. Everything just seems so much the same. There needs to be some other value besides the pellets themselves, don't you think?

It sounds like you are more interested in the bags than the product. Many pellet companies do NOT have a great pellet, I have seen that up close. In my area I have seen two maybe three different pellet companies that have a good pellet and there are more pellet companies than I can think of. Two of them have websites and Face book pages on their bags. When I buy pellets, I buy for quality and not the best looking bag that holds them. I don't care if a child wrote on the bag, that bag is trash after the bag has been emptied, the companies know this.

 

[smwilliamson]

I'm still having a had time believing PFI had much to do with it. Box store wars are just that. Box stores fighting each other with prices. Plus the pellets you see at the box store are just about the same pellet at the pellet house in a different bag. The mills wanted in, Less dollar per ton, But in a higher volume of sales.

IMHO what got better product coming from the mills is sites like this and our word of mouth. If a mill was selling junk, We didn't see them around too long.

Until PFI started their spot checks(which wasn't until this spring-After EPA became involved!) there was little they knew about crap goods heading to market. Even if you sent info about garbage product, PFI would do little to back the end user. Most times you wouldn't even get a reply!

All PFI really did was create a standard of what the end product should look like. Whether the manufacturer abides by the standard or not is entirely up to them, but the industry that supplies the equipment to the industry to make pellets now has some general rules to follow. For example, if company x supplies dies for pellet mills, now they have some rules to follow for what is generally accepted and focus on supplying something that can be sold to many mills. Over time they all end up making pellets that are the same diameter, length and density...ergo pellets which are similar regardless of who makes them.

 

[smwilliamson]

It sounds like you are more interested in the bags than the product. Many pellet companies do NOT have a great pellet, I have seen that up close. In my area I have seen two maybe three different pellet companies that have a good pellet and there are more pellet companies than I can think of. Two of them have websites and Face book pages on their bags. When I buy pellets, I buy for quality and not the best looking bag that holds them. I don't care if a child wrote on the bag, that bag is trash after the bag has been emptied, the companies know this.

And you are the majority that makes up the swing buyer. Whether you know it or not, when you buy pellets you buy based upon some underlying motivation. I'm not so concerend with the product or the bag but rather the experience. If a pellet manufacturer can find a way to speak to their base (repeat customers) they can focus on growing the base...and to do that you need to play to their motivations while making more entry points for folks who are outside of the base. It's called marketing.

 

[smwilliamson]

I buy for quality and not the best looking bag that holds them. I don't care if a child wrote on the bag, that bag is trash after the bag has been emptied, the companies know this.

You would think different if your child's art was on the bag. Them are bragging rights and that my friend will create a wider conversation amongst friends and sell more pellets. Your bag is trash? So I suppose you think it's alright to use a bag and toss it and never get another use. Imagine having a bag that was air locked...it would give the package as a whole more torsional rigidity so there would be less break up inside the bag. Less dust is good. Having an air locked bag would eliminate the need for air holes to be put on the bag, thus stopping water from getting in and ruining product. Innovation brought us the pellet stove...it doesn't need to stop there.

 

[jtakeman]

All PFI really did was create a standard of what the end product should look like. Whether the manufacturer abides by the standard or not is entirely up to them, but the industry that supplies the equipment to the industry to make pellets now has some general rules to follow. For example, if company x supplies dies for pellet mills, now they have some rules to follow for what is generally accepted and focus on supplying something that can be sold to many mills. Over time they all end up making pellets that are the same diameter, length and density...ergo pellets which are similar regardless of who makes them.

I'll give you PFI set the standards(and changed them several times over the years). IMHO, Pellets have been around since the late 80's. Better than 3 decades. If we were going to have ergo pellets we would have had them by now. Pellets have their own personality due to many variables. So even if you have the same set of dies, They will still be different mill to mill. Fiber quality alone would be enough to change pellet A from pellet B. Fiber also effects density or should I say the size of it. Chipped log fiber(which has become popular with mills with supply issues) is coarse and is harder to get a good dense pellet compared to the mills using fiber from milling equipment in the lumber trades.

I will also give you some do buy because of the pretty bag. How else could Inferno still be in business.

I know a fella that is probably one of the best at marketing pellets, I sure he will respond to this topic with an email to me. I am curious to what he might say. Interseting topic you started smw, for sure!

 

[MSmith66]

You would think different if your child's art was on the bag. Them are bragging rights and that my friend will create a wider conversation amongst friends and sell more pellets. Your bag is trash? So I suppose you think it's alright to use a bag and toss it and never get another use. Imagine having a bag that was air locked...it would give the package as a whole more torsional rigidity so there would be less break up inside the bag. Less dust is good. Having an air locked bag would eliminate the need for air holes to be put on the bag, thus stopping water from getting in and ruining product. Innovation brought us the pellet stove...it doesn't need to stop there.

If a GOOD quality pellet was in a plain white bag,"with no air holes, thus stopping water from getting in and ruining product.", I would but it over a crappy pellet in a GREAT looking bag. I have been buying pellets for 9+ years for many of folks and have never been told, "Those pellet are bad". I have informed many folks of ALL different brands of pellets on the market and to find which brand burns better i their stove and stay with that brand. To this day I have never had a complaint. Quality is better. Oh and always recycle that plastic bag ~

 

[smwilliamson]

I just used the die as an example. When a standard is set, there is generally a trickle down effect. Whether manufacturers subscribe to the standard or not publicly doesn't mean that they do not account for it simply by default.I do not see anyone making square pellets or pellet balls.

I understand that pellets have been around far longer than the standard. There are two kinds of standards, accepted and implied. The implied standard kinda governs things just fine without being written or tracked, until someone starts to innovate. That innovation may work against the status quot and therefore require more effort to bring it into acceptance. If the benefits of a new way of doing things create value, perhaps a new standard is written simple by folks coping the trendsetter... eventually old standard may be tweaked to include the latest innovations. It always a moving target.

I look at the big picture and try to alien my own selfish motivations...like more customers or more long term customers. If I can innovate a new way of thinking or doing and it generates results, that is my standard...people see it working for me and then they copy me...if enough catch on then it becomes another accepted standard.

Engineers can make anything, but consumers will only buy into what speaks to them. So...that said, what makes people buy into this brand of pellet or that brand? Aside from high heat, low ash, low fines, low price, hardwood, softwood or mix...what other aspect causes people to pull the trigger on 4 tons? The experience, that's what. No one is exploiting the experience and it is perhaps the single greatest motivator aside from from convenience and price.

 

[jtakeman]

When I buy pellets, I buy for quality and not the best looking bag that holds them. I don't care if a child wrote on the bag, that bag is trash after the bag has been emptied...........

Add me to the list of people that care less how pretty the bag looks. I'm happy there is a variance between pellet brands. I enjoy the challenge of sorting through the brands to find a quality pellet at a reasonable price.

 

[Lousyweather]

Engineers can make anything, but consumers will only buy into what speaks to them. So...that said, what makes people buy into this brand of pellet or that brand? Aside from high heat, low ash, low fines, low price, hardwood, softwood or mix...what other aspect causes people to pull the trigger on 4 tons? The experience, that's what. No one is exploiting the experience and it is perhaps the single greatest motivator aside from from convenience and price.

what motivates folks to buy whatever brand, Scott? Call me cynical, but based on my experience both in selling pellets and in years of reviewing posts on this site, PRICE is the main motivator for the majority of folks. I know there are pellet afficionados and pellet connosoirs (sp?) who will pay more for a better pellet, but frankly, that is the extreme minority of buyers. Most people these days are driven by price. I thought about putting up a survey of this exact question, but after reading about the viability of surveys such as this, its been shown that most folks dont answer truthfully, rather, they skew the results by answering what they *think* the right answer is, rather than expose the ugly truth.....

Heck, I dont care whats on the bag....some kids' artwork (really dont care about all that feel-good crapola), even whether its "PFI certified"......gimme a pellet I LIKE, in a plain white bag, thats reasonably priced, burns with minimal ash, and heats my home.....

 

[subsailor]

Heck, I dont care whats on the bag....some kids' artwork (really dont care about all that feel-good crapola), even whether its "PFI certified"......gimme a pellet I LIKE, in a plain white bag, thats reasonably prices, burns with minimal ash, and heats my home.....

X2

 

[smwilliamson]

Add me to the list of people that care less how pretty the bag looks. I'm happy there is a variance between pellet brands. I enjoy the challenge of sorting through the brands to find a quality pellet at a reasonable price.

The thrill of the hunt, the same reasons yard sales are so popular