Thoughts on Pellet Boilers

[wil lanfear]

It has a set pilot mode, either every 6 minutes for 2 minutes or every 14 minutes for 2 minutes. There is a dump zone, per code when it was installed ~ since not a requirement ~ but have never needed it. It will also shut completely down if it reaches its high limit. It isn't like an oiler boiler, it runs at the low limit. The high limit is the shut off point, and will cycle back on automatically once it cools down. That has only happened twice in 4 years that I know of.

It is the oldest (the PB 150, not mine specifically) operating biomass boiler in North America. The furnaces have been around even longer.

After finding the owners manual I now understand how the boiler controls function, keeping a fire burning all the time unless the boiler is shut down (fuel stops being fed) do to a high limit overheat situation.

/r/_ylt=A0oG7hg.HxBRlgYA2iBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0cW0zOGx2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA01TWTAwMl83OA--/SIG=12np9dli7/EXP=1360039870/**http%3a//www.pinnaclestove.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/pb150mn.pdf

 

[harttj]

no i haven't. I know with just my pellet stove cranked to the max i can burn 2-3 a day. That is why i want a boiler thats plenty big enough to heat the home so i dont need it cranked to the max all the time like i do with this stove.

no i haven't. I know with just my pellet stove cranked to the max i can burn 2-3 a day. That is why i want a boiler thats plenty big enough to heat the home so i dont need it cranked to the max all the time like i do with this stove.

3 bags a day is 40k input and 4 bags is 53k input. Is your stove heating your house now?

Unless there is an issue I don't see how a house could require 100k.

Maybe worthwhile to determine your true heat load.

Tim

 

[iceguy4]

Is the pb105 really through wall, for sure? That would really save a lot of money.

It absolutely does go right out the basement wall and terminates 18" above the ground. This was one of the main reasons I chose this boiler.

 

[heaterman]

Totally agree with you about differences in construction of these boilers but...... one needs to realize at some point that one may need a part replaced or service of some sort or maybe just to buy a replacement part to install yourself so......... if no dealer is in your area, what will you do???

Become the dealer!!

 

[SmokeEater]

Yes i have an old wood furnace that dont work, and a oil boiler now. Wood furnance is coming out as soon as the weather warms up.. And i hope to have a boiler put in its place next to my oil boiler, by next winter.

Chris, I have had my PB-105 for nearly a full year now and have similar experiences as all the other owners of the Harman. Solidly built, very easy to clean once every week or two. This will only take five minutes with a vacuun handy. Clean the burnpot, vacuun around, wash the sight window off with a little windex, close it all up, put in 3 or 4 bags of pellets and you're good to go. I connected a 100 gallon Triangle Tube IWH to the Harman along with my oil boiler. The Triangle's water is potable so that's also my DHW and all I want. I have the Harman's aquastat turned to it's max 185-190* and the oil boiler only runs if the Harman runs out of pellets and the Triangle's water temp drops to 145*. I've maybe burned 5 gallons of oil this winter and my home's heated area is about 3000 sq. ft. In the year I've burned 9 tons of pellets, but don't use the Triangle in the summer, so neither the oil boiler nor the Harman run in the off season to provide DHW. I use an electric tank for that time.

 

[Chris04626]

3 bags a day is 40k input and 4 bags is 53k input. Is your stove heating your house now?

Unless there is an issue I don't see how a house could require 100k.

Maybe worthwhile to determine your true heat load.

Tim

The stove heats the room its in well, but out in the kitchen is a good 5 degree different. I have had old windows put in when the house was built in 1978 i am in the process of having them replaced so i am hoping this will help out on the heating/

 

[smwilliamson]

Says the guy that will probably get the service call ~ great business model! Many solid fuel installers in Maine, few repair techs.

Pretty presumptuous, and insulting statement made by you ~ about me. However, my statement still rings true no matter whatever the product. The more it can do, the more that can go wring with it.

And by the way, my PB150 still measured 87% efficiency after 4 years, a few weeks ago. Who upgrades a $10K+ heating appliance after 4 years?

OH I get it now! You're sore because what you get with the Pinnacle is excellent customer service, backed by the seller. If you have a problem, he comes out and fixes it, versus YOU getting the service call ~ Unlike (some) Harman, and MESys.

Yes there are some great pellet/biomass boilers out there now, but I'll keep my Pinnacle. Nothing can go wrong with it that I can't fix, or have Mark here the same day fixing. No bad ignitors, control boards, additional motors, etc. etc.

What a pompous POS you are Mr. Williams.

Unless you coined the phrase "bells and whistles" the comment was not about you. What I'm saying...things that cost more are often disregarded with such comments pointing toward, "more options=more to fail" which isn't really true but is propagated throughout society and generally taken as gospel.

I truly do appreciate simplicity in design. Glad you like your Pinnacle and thanks for sharing. Yeah...you got me figured out....I like the units that have very few service techs...both are dealer supported and somewhat exclude me yet I still give hem props...

My my, don't be so emotional and by the way, it's Williamson, Scott Williamson....da, da da-da, da (queue music from James Bond)

 

[Chris04626]

how much btu boiler does one need? How would you figure that our

 

[harttj]

how much btu boiler does one need? How would you figure that our

Heat loss calc at design temperature. There are some online ones that will get you in the ballpark if your honest about the insulation. Having an energy audit and or air loss test would help also.

If your currently heating the house with the stove with some temperature gradients you can use that as a starting point. Also need to understand how much you'll loose in the distribution system.

Tim

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

how much btu boiler does one need? How would you figure that our

Hi Chris,

I second "harttj" post.
That is the only correct way to do it.

To give you some first ball park number on heat loss, you can use these guidelines for "moderate" New England conditions:

- old house not insulated or poorly insulated: SF of house x 37 BTU/sf

- house in 2x4 stick construction fairly well insulated: SF of house x 30 BTU/sf

- house in 2x6 stick construction very well insulated and tight: SF of house x 25 BTU/sf

- house in 2x6 stick construction super insulated and very tight: SF of house x 15 BTU/sf

- Passive House: SF of house x 8 BTU/sf

Example:
a 2x6 stick build house in 2012 of 2,500 SF should have a max heat loss of 2,500 x 25 = 62,500 BTU/hr
The same square footage for an old house would result in 2,500SF x 37 = 92,500 BTU/hr

The above guidelines include for DHW for 2 adults and 2 kids.

These guidelines are up for lots of discussions and other trade professionals will have their say on them, but it gives you a ballpark.
If you apply them you will not end up with a boiler that is way over-sized.

 

[ScotL]

It was 5 years ago but I think it was about $7500. It's worked well.
Two of my relatives also put in PB105s the same year and we've all had some warranty work done. One had a burnpot replacement. Mine had a control board and ESP replaced because it doesn't read the water temperature correctly. Still not sure why they replaced the ESP. I ended up fixing it myself by sliding the sensor up a little higher in the well it sits in. I've also replaced the ignitor once (it was warranteed too).
It's very heavy and ruggedly built. We had to disassemble it into 3 pieces and it still took 6 of us to get it down my cellar steps. I like how the burn pot swings out on hinges and is easy to clean. The only PF100 I've seen was extremely difficult to clean. I didn't appreciate the convenience of the PB105 setup until I tried cleaning a PF100.

I've seen 2 of the Okefen boilers and they seemed ok. I didn't get to watch them for very long or open them up.
I've only seen the smallest Kedel boiler and it seemed ok too. But I don't have any operational experience with either of these boilers from Denmark. The control systems appear to be way more advanced than the Harman and they seem to be more versatile in how they are set up.

Now that the Kedel is working and I've had some experience with it, I thought I'd update this.
I've had less problems with the Kedel than I did with the PB105 right after installation - even though the Kedel is much more complex. The setup issues were resolved quickly and it's been working well. This is one of the smaller Kedels and has an output rating lower than my PB105 but it still cranks out all the heat I'll ever need. It's rated at 54,000 BTU/hr which, with 8250 BTU/lb pellets, would be about 4 bags per day when it's operating at 100%. They make several different sizes if you somehow need more than that - but very few houses should.

I think my favorite feature is the self cleaning. The heat exchanger has some metal scrapers that occasionally cycle up and down to automatically clean the surfaces off and it has a little air compressor attached to 4 tubes on the front of the burn pot that cleans it off when it shuts down. After getting the compressor installed, I've never had to clean the burn pot again. I really like that. I've attached a little picture of the burn pot. This is after burning over a ton of pellets without me touching the burn pot in any way. There's also a picture of the installation. Also, it's online and can be seen at stokercloud.dk/dev/217.html but it's turned off right now so there's not much to see.

Overall, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of these if I was looking for a boiler for my house. If I was planning to use it for DHW too (which I already do with my PB105) I would definitely prefer one of these Kedels because it has the ability to scale down to heat domestic hot water and remain efficient.

 

[sinnian]

Scott how many bags were you burning? Not all of us have access to a pellet mill Four bags a day seems like an awful lot pellets. I burn at worst during the coldest times 2-3 bags with my boiler. Like the features of the Kedel though ~ too bad reVision are a bunch of backstabbers.

 

[heaterman]

how much btu boiler does one need? How would you figure that our

Start with your heat loss. Marc has a pretty decent set of guidelines listed in his post as far as btu/sq ft goes.

The thing I would really like to stress if you are buying a pellet boiler is to look for one that is able to turn the firing rate up/down automatically to match the load in the building. The issue with heat loss is that it's always changing so your boiler should be able to change its output along with it. This is going to be far more efficient than a single output boiler even thought they may both be rated at 85% at full fire for example. The less start and stop cycles the better.

 

[ScotL]

Scott how many bags were you burning? Not all of us have access to a pellet mill Four bags a day seems like an awful lot pellets. I burn at worst during the coldest times 2-3 bags with my boiler. Like the features of the Kedel though ~ too bad reVision are a bunch of backstabbers.

When it was cold out I burnt 2 bags a day at the most.
What I meant was, even though the rating of 54k BTU is lower than my Harman, that 54k BTU would be 4 bags of pellets per day at it's maximum heat output. So I'm not close to utilizing it's full capacity.

 

[Chris04626]

What is the price difference in a Kedel to the Harman?

 

[ScotL]

What is the price difference in a Kedel to the Harman?

I'm not sure what the current pricing is. The only way to tell for sure would be to contact Revision Heat and a Harman dealer.

 

[sinnian]

What is the price difference in a Kedel to the Harman?

Not worth getting your toe wet with a Harman, if you're going to do it ~ jump right in

Wish the Kedel was around back in 2008, I wouldn't have hesitated one bit.

http://kedelboilers.com/meet-kedel/our-pellet-boiler/