Up close with a Garn Jr.

[heaterman]

You can use a vertical flue with a Garn but there is a catch. For any flue using Class A chimney, like the Garn does, there can be only one 90* turn. That means if the pipe exiting stright out the back of the Garn is below grade, you'd have to excavate down to it and build a "chase" to grade level for the pipe. It also makes accessing the tee used for the 90* turn problematic when it comes time to clean it.
If you can put it on the "daylight" wall of the basement it is no problem.

 

[heaterman]

According to the DEQ when I talked to them earlier this month, pellet boilers and stoves are exempt from any limits in OR, and thus are allowed.

In WA state, cat/non-cat pellet boilers and stoves are required to pass the same state particulate maximums as non-cat wood stoves and boilers (cat: 2.5 gr. per hr., non-cat: 4.5 gr. per hr.). As of their latest update, there are only 3 indoor pellet boilers that are certified in WA state, two from Kunzel and one from Harmon. As for pellet stoves in WA state, there is a large list that are approved for sale there (similar to wood stoves).

I have a fear that this is where the whole industry is going to wind up unless manufacturers cease building the junk that is on the market now and users start adopting best practices in their burn habits.

In a nut shell, this is what I see coming down the track....... Government types can and probably will ban dirty burning appliances but that's only one side of the problem.
The thing they can't control (and they are already figuring this out) is the fuel quality that people put in the newer gasification type units.
Anyone who has run one knows that properly seasoned fuel is key to a clean burn and good efficiency.
So the next logical step in the minds of those regulating emissions from wood burners will be that they regulate the fuel too. That means pellets or some other kind of fuel that has a consistency that lends itself to a standard level of performance.

Don't think they can do that? Just look at unleaded gas and low sulfur diesel fuel. They have lot's and lot's of practice in telling us what we can and can't do or use.
You heard it here first.

 

[StihlHead]

Oh, they can certainly do that. The EPA came down hard on coal burning yesterday, and power & coal companies are screaming. However, in many cases the reasons for laws and limits are poorly researched or understood, and often times are circumvented. Rather than reduce CO2 emissions from new US coal fired plants, utilities will simply switch to NG and the coal will be exported to China, where it will be released into the atmosphere there instead of here. So what will be gained by that?

In OR you are 'supposed' burn dry seasoned wood. But on the OR state DEQ wood burning site, they have wood seasoning all screwed up. They state that oak, maple and madrone take 6 months to season, while alder is listed as taking longer. In reality, alder is 6 months or less, and the dense hardwoods like madrone and oak take at least a year, if not two. Good luck getting oak to dry to 20% here in 6 months. Alder is easy. I have both in my racks now, the oak is almost at 20% after 2 years, the alder was 18% in less than one. But the DEQ knows best for what we need in the state of OR, regardless of the actual facts.

http://www.deq.state.or.us/aq/burning/woodstoves/101.htm

 

[chewy]

Heaterman, I just want to say Ty for all the time you put to this forum. These types of shows, to my knowledge, don't come around my neck of the woods. Thanks for taking us through the garn jr.

Erin

 

[heaterman]

Heaterman, I just want to say Ty for all the time you put to this forum. These types of shows, to my knowledge, don't come around my neck of the woods. Thanks for taking us through the garn jr.

Erin

You're welcome! I really enjoy it here because it seems this site draws people who sincerely want to learn how to do it right. ...Not that I know everything there is to know, but what I do I will gladly pass along
Some of the other forums......not so much.
Making a case for burning wood right on some other forums is like wrestling a pig in a mud hole.
All you get is dirty and the pig likes it.

 

[BoilerMan]

Some of the other forums......not so much.
Making a case for burning wood right on some other forums is like wrestling a pig in a mud hole.
All you get is dirty and the pig likes it.

Well said!

TS

 

[Jim K in PA]

The other thing to be aware of is the height limit for a vertical flue with a GARN. I believe the fan in the Jr. is the same as the 1500/2000, so should have similar flow specs. The limit is 18' above the base of the unit to the top of the flue. HM - please correct me if I have this wrong.

Jim K

 

[heaterman]

The other thing to be aware of is the height limit for a vertical flue with a GARN. I believe the fan in the Jr. is the same as the 1500/2000, so should have similar flow specs. The limit is 18' above the base of the unit to the top of the flue. HM - please correct me if I have this wrong.

Jim K

I believe you are correct Jim.

 

[Holley]

I believe you are correct Jim.

I generally use 22 feet from the base as a flue height limit and have a number of units out there operating with those lenghts with no difficulties. Dectra will also set up any GARN with an 8" rather than 6" Duratech breech fitting and we have several units in our area with 8" flue pipe running with 30 to 35 foot flue heights. I suspect that the Jr. will breath OK with somewhat longer flue lengths than we have been using for the 1500s and 2000s in that it is using the same flue size and has a reduced firing rate

 

[willyswagon]

I generally use 22 feet from the base as a flue height limit and have a number of units out there operating with those lenghts with no difficulties. Dectra will also set up any GARN with an 8" rather than 6" Duratech breech fitting and we have several units in our area with 8" flue pipe running with 30 to 35 foot flue heights. I suspect that the Jr. will breath OK with somewhat longer flue lengths than we have been using for the 1500s and 2000s in that it is using the same flue size and has a reduced firing rate

So am I to take from your post that you are an installer? If so do you know of any in Atlantic Canada?

 

[MaineGuy]

I generally use 22 feet from the base as a flue height limit and have a number of units out there operating with those lenghts with no difficulties. Dectra will also set up any GARN with an 8" rather than 6" Duratech breech fitting and we have several units in our area with 8" flue pipe running with 30 to 35 foot flue heights. I suspect that the Jr. will breath OK with somewhat longer flue lengths than we have been using for the 1500s and 2000s in that it is using the same flue size and has a reduced firing rate

I'm going to guess your the guy I spent like 2 hours talking to at the common ground fair last friday afternoon. Thanks for answering all my questions. Hopefully if all goes as planned I'll be contacting you next spring. For a Garn Jr.

 

[Holley]

So am I to take from your post that you are an installer? If so do you know of any in Atlantic Canada?

I'm the factory rep for New England and Atlantic Canada. We don't do installations but work pretty closely with installers. I believe that we have five units in NS and at least one in NB. We are currently working on a design for space and wood kiln heating for a project on Cape Breton.

 

[Holley]

I'm going to guess your the guy I spent like 2 hours talking to at the common ground fair last friday afternoon. Thanks for answering all my questions. Hopefully if all goes as planned I'll be contacting you next spring. For a Garn Jr.

That would be me . It was good talking with you.

 

[heaterman]

That's a pretty compelling package especially if it could serve as the tank for my planned 1000 sq ft drainback system. Is it significantly cheaper than the 1500?

I don't know if you have done your project yet but I just talked with my accountant about using a Garn as a solar storage tank in order to gain the 30% tax credit for solar equipment.
She said if the Garn is legitimately used to store heat from the solar thermal system it would indeed qualify for the tax credit.
I would check with a local CPA on this for a second opinion but the sheet she gave me from the IRS clearly states that the tax credit covers storage connected to a solar panel.
This is a big deal.

 

[MaineGuy]

Thanks for the info. I don't have any solar right now. I'm guessing solar collectors for 1000 gallons wouldn't be cheap. I guess if it was 30 percent of the cost of a Garn Jr they would be free?

 

[heaterman]

Thanks for the info. I don't have any solar right now. I'm guessing solar collectors for 1000 gallons wouldn't be cheap. I guess if it was 30 percent of the cost of a Garn Jr they would be free?

Bingo.


Talking with my heat pump supplier this week and he said they have come out with a few restrictions on what the credit covers in that area. He told me of a couple customers who had 5 acre ponds dug to lay HP coils in and at first the tax credit was covering even the cost of that

 

[Buzz Saw]

I don't know if you have done your project yet but I just talked with my accountant about using a Garn as a solar storage tank in order to gain the 30% tax credit for solar equipment.

Any idea how long this will last? Is this a one year deal or will it make it to 2017? If this stays true it's a no brainer for me.

 

[heaterman]

Tax credits expire 2016.

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=US37F

 

[MaineGuy]

So it's a tax credit not a rebate. So it's not really 30 percent of the cost of a Garn. You just get to write off 30 percent. Which is a big difference. Because you're actually only getting about 15 percent of 30 percent?

 

[Fred61]

No, a tax credit is truly a credit. A tax deduction allows you to write off the cost but your savings only amounts to the percentage of tax you pay. There is one thing you must watch for. Although most here don't fall into this category, you must be liable to the IRS for taxes before you can get your credit. (It is deducted from your tax liability).

What has been happening recently is that a senior couple decide to purchase a new car and the aggressive sales person uses a sales pitch telling them that if they buy a Prius they will get X amount from the government. The problem is that the elderly couple usually owe little or no taxes so they end up paying the full price. I suspect that the sales people are ignorant of this situation.

 

[Buzz Saw]

Since there is no ash door I'm guessing you just shovel the ashed out from the big door on front? Where does the fresh air enter the firebox?

 

[MaineGuy]

No, a tax credit is truly a credit. A tax deduction allows you to write off the cost but your savings only amounts to the percentage of tax you pay. There is one thing you must watch for. Although most here don't fall into this category, you must be liable to the IRS for taxes before you can get your credit. (It is deducted from your tax liability).

What has been happening recently is that a senior couple decide to purchase a new car and the aggressive sales person uses a sales pitch telling them that if they buy a Prius they will get X amount from the government. The problem is that the elderly couple usually owe little or no taxes so they end up paying the full price. I suspect that the sales people are ignorant of this situation.

Thanks for explaining this. Seems like there's always some stipulation that disqualifies me for most tax credits so I guess I never really knew how they affect the taxes you pay. Thanks I learned something today.

 

[bhanks55]

Tax credits expire 2016.

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=US37F

This stipulates at least HALF the dwellings heat must be derived for by the solar heat. Am I reading this correctly? Is this reasonable to obtain with something like that in the farm application?

 

[jebatty]

Also, "Solar water heating property must be certified by SRCC." Maybe using a Garn Jr for solar hot water storage will provide a new form of "heat" in the form of a tax audit. Unless of course, Garn has obtained SRCC certification.

 

[mike van]

Since there is no ash door I'm guessing you just shovel the ashed out from the big door on front? Where does the fresh air enter the firebox?

Every two days I take two shovelfuls of ash out, into an old ash box from a Harman. Fresh air comes in through a dedicated 7" pipe to the outside.