taking ownership of a Jotul Firelight Model 12

[aansorge]

I'm not sure, my Uncle thought he bought it around then, but I'll double check. He has been running it without the catalyst for years now
I've been trying to talk him into purchasing a new one. What are the differences in burn time?

 

[stovelark]

Hi all- the firelight 12 was made from 1993-1999. The F500 Oslo came out and with secondary burn tubes and side loading was more powerful than the fl 12 cat stove. The fl 12 top loader was competing with VC's top loading stoves, and was somewhat underpowered at 55,000 BTUs (Jotul's rating for the 12). The Oslo sales were so good that Jotul quickly realized the FL needed to be converted too to secondary burn tubes and the F600 was born. With the increased firebox capacity and the side loader on the opposite side of the Oslo, it restored the FL as the behemoth of Jotul, although most folks at Jotul would agree the F600 and the Oslo heated about the same. We sold the stoves as what side do you want to load from to customers (the Oslo left facing, the Firelight right facing). Some people still liked the FL's double front doors too, and the hex handle to open the front or side door, it gave the stove a swept appearance with no handles protruding. The fact is, the FL 12 was a great stove for people who wanted a top loading, catalytic model. The stove's achilles heel is the rear burn plate and its somewhat fragile catalytic housing chamber. Hey the F500/F600 isn't perfect either, if beat on the secondary tube manifold can loosen and fall out, I've fixed a few Oslos myself. I burned an Oslo for 7 years, never had that issue, but it does happen, no stove is perfect. I have come to the conclusion that steel stoves are the simplest and least fussy to operate, IMO. It probably doesn't matter too much what stove we all burn, good dry wood and they'll all keep us warm...

 

[Ashful]

The F600 has a bigger firebox than the F12? I had always been told they're the same size, same castings and all...

 

[stovelark]

Hi Joful, yes the f600 inner size was a little bigger, the upper framing and bypass damper assembly isn't in the F600, and the secondary tubes and manifold is sitting higher in the stove. The rear burnplate and catalytic chamber is gone too, giving a little more interior space. You are right though in that all the outer castings and many of the interiors are exactly the same. Outwardly. originally the F600 had the same hex bolt on the side door as the front double doors' locking bolt, then Jotul affixed a handle to the side door (to match the Oslo side door handle), a lot of people were tired of the hex handle necessity. Outwardly, its hard to tell the difference in the two stoves except no right foot pedal on the 12. I'm sure there is a number for the firebox for the F600, the Oslo firebox was 2.5 cuft, I believe I'm right to say around 3.0 for the F600, that could be checked on Jotul's website. Either way, no slight for the FL 12, that was a heckuva stove, and as you know, is still fully supported with parts available still because there is a lot of FL 12 owners like yourself out there.

 

[aansorge]

Did Jotul have Cat stoves before the Firelight?

 

[stovelark]

Oh yeah, Jotul had the models 3 and 8, both catalytic. 3TDC, 8TDC were their models, earlier versions without ashpan, later versions had the ashpan (designated as AP on the end of the model numbers). Both models were in the 90's to meet EPA specs as most other stoves of that generation, the F500 came out in 1999, replacing the model 8 series. Was a breakthrough with non-cat sec burntubes, thats why the Firelight went quickly to the same system. Jotuls were plagued with the cats, people found them hard to operate, the chimneys had to draft optimally, the wood needed to be split more finely and the cats were (still are) expensive to replace typically every 2-5 seasons. I believe the F3CB (for clean burn) came out in 1996, it had the secondary burn chamber, and the others followed suit. Jotul was kinda slow to switch over, many other stove makers (the Pac Northwest crowd) had burn tubes for years instead of cats. The Oslo was the big breakthrough, home run stove though. Sorry so long-winded.

 

[begreen]

Hi Joful, yes the f600 inner size was a little bigger, the upper framing and bypass damper assembly isn't in the F600, and the secondary tubes and manifold is sitting higher in the stove. The rear burnplate and catalytic chamber is gone too, giving a little more interior space. You are right though in that all the outer castings and many of the interiors are exactly the same. Outwardly. originally the F600 had the same hex bolt on the side door as the front double doors' locking bolt, then Jotul affixed a handle to the side door (to match the Oslo side door handle), a lot of people were tired of the hex handle necessity. Outwardly, its hard to tell the difference in the two stoves except no right foot pedal on the 12. I'm sure there is a number for the firebox for the F600, the Oslo firebox was 2.5 cuft, I believe I'm right to say around 3.0 for the F600, that could be checked on Jotul's website. Either way, no slight for the FL 12, that was a heckuva stove, and as you know, is still fully supported with parts available still because there is a lot of FL 12 owners like yourself out there.

Interesting history there stovelark. You mention the F500 at 2.5 cu ft and the F600 at ~3.0 cu ft. I don't have one handy to measure, but I thought the F500 is a bit more toward 2 cu ft actual usable firebox. Somewhere like 2.2 or 2.3 IIRC.

 

[stovelark]

Hi BG, you know, I think you may be right, the Oslo may well be around 2 to 2.1, I say that because I know originially Jotul rated it up to 1800 sqft here in New England, and later changed it to 2000 sq ft. And the Firelight might be around 2.5, those numbers seem more correct, thanks for correcting that. I've been away from selling Jotuls for a couple of seasons, but looks like I might be back in with them soon. Take care.

 

[stovelark]

Hey BG, just got off of Jotul's website, Oslo firebox is 2.54 cuft, F600 Firelight is 2.97 cuft as listed. Still like the Enviros, they have N/S loading vice Jotul's more E/W. And I still like the steel stoves' ease of running, but ya gotta like the cast stoves and their enamel colors.....

 

[Nick Mystic]

Jotul F500 (Oslo): 2.54 cf firebox: Jotul F600 (Firelight CB): 2.97 cf firebox

 

[aansorge]

If cats only last 2 to 5 years, I can see why my uncle hasn't purchased a new one. Any brands of cat last longer than the rest? I just bought a Blaze King and have been reading that they typically last 7 years. Why the big difference?

 

[Ashful]

No difference, and most cat's last much longer than 5 years, if not abused or physically damaged. This is why they're typically warranted for 5 or 6 years, depending on manufacturer.

There is a certain amount of catalyst plated onto the substrate material, be it ceramic or stainless steel. That catalyst material is slowly used up in the reaction, and should be good for perhaps 10 - 20,000 hours of typical cord wood burning (depending on materials and design), under normal conditions.

Huge variations in operator procedures, wood species, amount the stove is run, etc. causes that to translate into a usable lifetime anywhere from a few years to a few decades. Unfortunately, like us, they're often killed before they can die a natural death. Ways to kill a cat are poisoning (burning painted or treated wood, or man-made glues or materials), flame impingement (causes cratering), or voilent temperature cycling (throwing wet wood into a firebox when the cat is at 1000F+), which causes fracturing. They can also be accidentally damaged during removal / re-installation for cleaning.

Most full-time burners assume a catalyst lifetime of 5 years, making your $200 catalyst (most are $150 - $250) cost you $40 per year. Now compare that to the $2k - $3k you're saving in oil, or even the several hundred dollars worth of wood you'll save due to the increased efficiency when using the cat, and it's really foolish to burn without the catalyst installed.

Perhaps more importantly, how does he avoid overheating the flue without a catalyst engaged? Maybe he keeps the bypass damper closed, which is not something I've tried with the catalyst removed. I do know that it's almost impossible to avoid overheating the flue with the bypass door open on a Firelight 12.

 

[stovelark]

Hi Joful- FYI, 2-5 years for Jotul cats was from Jotul seminar training (worst case scenarios typically) attended years ago- I found that most people never replaced their cats or if they did, they would last typically 7-10 seasons. Corning (Condar cc maker, who Jotul used), their present warranty is up to 5 years, 1st year 100%, 2nd 60%, 3rd 50%, 4th 25%, 5th 10% that they will cover. I think you're right, most folks will burn it with no cat and bypass closed, after the cat crumbles or plugs up. I have a friend with a 12, they won't give it up, but never run it in cat mode. It goes into a 20 foot class a chimney, runs very nicely too, I have to say. Just having the bypass closed and no cat I guess slows down the air flow enough to keep it controllable. Anyway, have a good one....

 

[BKVP]

Hi Joful- FYI, 2-5 years for Jotul cats was from Jotul seminar training (worst case scenarios typically) attended years ago- I found that most people never replaced their cats or if they did, they would last typically 7-10 seasons. Corning (Condar cc maker, who Jotul used), their present warranty is up to 5 years, 1st year 100%, 2nd 60%, 3rd 50%, 4th 25%, 5th 10% that they will cover. I think you're right, most folks will burn it with no cat and bypass closed, after the cat crumbles or plugs up. I have a friend with a 12, they won't give it up, but never run it in cat mode. It goes into a 20 foot class a chimney, runs very nicely too, I have to say. Just having the bypass closed and no cat I guess slows down the air flow enough to keep it controllable. Anyway, have a good one....

All catalytic equipped wood stove manufacturers are held to a 3 year, 100% mandatory warranty for failure due to thermal degradation. Attached you will find a pdf. It is a copy of the Federal Register. Keep in mind; the regulatory aspects to manufacturing solid fuel burning appliances are currently under review as the NSPS. Forth coming will be new test methods, standards and a list of products that were formally excluded, that will now be included. Also, by all indications, the new hang tags placed on wood stoves will have the appliances HHV% (Higher Heating Value) and no longer have defaults. Any combustor warranty beyond 3 years is usually negotiated between the catalyst supplier and the stove manufacturer. The combustor suppliers know which models is more or less bullet proof and are willing to back extended warranties.

 

[stovelark]

Hi BKVP- understand what you are saying. Visiting Condar's website, thats where I got their warranty info. I've dealt with mainly non-cat stove mfrs, so I'll defer on that.. I think corning makes most stove combustors, I know they make Condar combustors, which is what Jotul always used in their cat stoves in the 90's.....

 

[BKVP]

Hi BKVP- understand what you are saying. Visiting Condar's website, thats where I got their warranty info. I've dealt with mainly non-cat stove mfrs, so I'll defer on that.. I think corning makes most stove combustors, I know they make Condar combustors, which is what Jotul always used in their cat stoves in the 90's.....

Corning sold out many, many years ago to Sud Chemie. Sud Chemie was just purchased by Clariant. The other major supplier is Applied Ceramics (www.firecatcombustors.com). I think you will find the awesome folks at Condar purchase from Applied and perhaps also Clariant.

By the way, on two occasions in the past 5 years I visited the Munich Germany headquarters for Sud Chemie (now owned by Clariant) and their facilities are spectacular. There is also a conveniently located hearth retailer just a few blocks away. In Germany, they refer to the combustor as a "filter". I saw some amazing units there last year and got some ideas. Of course there, there are many government programs (subsidized) to help consumers move away from non renewable fuels to renewable fuels.

Thank you,
Chris

 

[stovelark]

Hi Chris thanks for the info.

 

[Ohlson35]

Hi, am looking at a 12 today,this has a cat?..Is the 12 cb better..will this burn 10 hrs

 

[Ashful]

Not sure what a 12 "CB" is. The Firelight 12 is a catalytic stove. I have two of them burning in my house.

edit: I'm doing some googling, and found a few references of a non-catalytic 12 CB, which was an interim model between the original 12 (catalytic) and the current 600 (non-cat). Nothing official on it from Jotul, yet.

 

[Ashful]

One potential issue I see with this F12 CB is obtaining parts. Is it identical to a 600 CB? Are there some different parts, made of un-obtanium? Look at any stove parts site, and you'll see parts for the F12 catalytic and the F600 CB... no mention of an F12 CB. What do you do when you need to replace a broken component... buy the F600 CB part, and hope it fits?

 

[raybonz]

Hi, am looking at a 12 today,this has a cat?..Is the 12 cb better..will this burn 10 hrs

I believe the 12CB is the non-cat secondary burn firelight.. Should be a good stove if in decent shape..

Ray

 

[Ohlson35]

Not sure what a 12 "CB" is. The Firelight 12 is a catalytic stove. I have two of them burning in my house.

edit: I'm doing some googling, and found a few references of a non-catalytic 12 CB, which was an interim model between the original 12 (catalytic) and the current 600 (non-cat). Nothing official on it from Jotul, yet.

I got the 12..beautiful shape...looks barely used.. looks out of show room shape! installed it last nite,slow to stat up,need to pay attention to mid size kindling.. in the manual, says 33 k btu's..find that hard to fathom,I replaced an over used acclaim..which was supposed to hit 40k BTU.... what can I expect with dry wood for burn times?

 

[Ohlson35]

Not sure what a 12 "CB" is. The Firelight 12 is a catalytic stove. I have two of them burning in my house.

edit: I'm doing some googling, and found a few references of a non-catalytic 12 CB, which was an interim model between the original 12 (catalytic) and the current 600 (non-cat). Nothing official on it from Jotul, yet.

Thanks ,it is a 12,and a beauty..

 

[Ashful]

I got the 12..beautiful shape...looks barely used.. looks out of show room shape! installed it last nite,slow to stat up,need to pay attention to mid size kindling.. in the manual, says 33 k btu's..find that hard to fathom,I replaced an over used acclaim..which was supposed to hit 40k BTU.... what can I expect with dry wood for burn times?

Congrat's! You know the saying, "pics, or it didn't happen."

The BTU rating in my Jotul old manuals are not the actual BTU's the stove can produce on hardwood, but the EPA test BTU output, which is based on a fixed load of 2x4 lumber. Most stove manufacturers put their rated BTU's on cordwood at roughly double this rating, and I see they rate the current Firelight at 85,000 BTU. I would expect yours to be very close to the same. The Firelight is a massive heater.

 

[Ohlson35]

Picture="Joful, post: 1565063, member: 22094"]Congrat's! You know the saying, "pics, or it didn't happen."

The BTU rating in my Jotul old manuals are not the actual BTU's the stove can produce on hardwood, but the EPA test BTU output, which is based on a fixed load of 2x4 lumber. Most stove manufacturers put their rated BTU's on cordwood at roughly double this rating, and I see they rate the current Firelight at 85,000 BTU. I would expect yours to be very close to the same. The Firelight is a massive heater.[/quote]
Pictu