Newbie to wood stoves AND to this forum because of it.

[Numero182]

Hello all, As the title says, I'm new to this forum and to the whole wood burning scene. I've read the articles on choosing a stove and had a browse around so feel ready to ask some informed questions. I've just moved from a 1970's modern construction, cavity wall, insulated and centrally heated with a gas boiler house in England to a 200 year old stone farmhouse in Italy where we have inherited an old freestanding stove. The house has two rooms on the ground floor with a central staircase in the main living kitchen room, two bedrooms above with part of a bedroom stolen for a bathroom, we currently have a good sized wood stove in the main living space but it does little/nothing for the rest of the house, there is a small upright wood/brikette burner in the other ground floor room whch heats that room fine when used.

We've only been here six months and are sorting the place out but here are the questions we have before sinking a load of money into the place, firstly, we're planning on replacing the wood burner in the main room to one with a back boiler for hot water in the winter and we'd like it to do a better job of warming the house so what kind of freestanding stove and what outputs should i be aiming for? Secondly, the other small stove has a flue that exits the house immediately and then continues for five metres to above the roof line, it's a standard non insulated type and since the temperature has dropped we can't use the stove as we get disgusting black liquid running back down the flue into the room, stinks! I suspect that the cold air and length of non insulated flue is causing the gases to condense before exiting, so I'm now considering running the flue inside the house through into the bedroom above to provide heat in that room too. Any thoughta on all of this? Apologies for the agonisingly long post. Thanks in advance!

 

[smokedragon]

what outputs should i be aiming for?

I would need to know square footage (but with it being stone, I assume little or no insulation). I am not familiar with the back boiler you refer to, but you would probably want the largest wood stove you could put there (since that heat will travel upstairs).

it's a standard non insulated type and since the temperature has dropped we can't use the stove as we get disgusting black liquid running back down the flue into the room, stinks!

That is a NO NO around here. Single wall pipe shouldn't be used outside the house, or through the wall. That liquid is creosote, and that cooling from the single wall pipe could be the big reason for it forming. The other reason could be (or at least adding to it) that your wood is not dry enough.

Do you have a moisture meter to measure the moisture of the wood you are burning? It is the best investment I ever made.

 

[Numero182]

Hi Smokedragon, thanks for the reply!

I would need to know square footage (but with it being stone, I assume little or no insulation). I am not familiar with the back boiler you refer to, but you would probably want the largest wood stove you could put there (since that heat will travel upstairs).by back boiler i mean it has a water tank on the back of the stove to heat water, quite common here in Italy, size of the house: the floor dimensions are 9metres by 5metres so 45m per floor, 90 in total, that's about 900 sq.ft in total.



That is a NO NO around here. Single wall pipe shouldn't be used outside the house, or through the wall. That liquid is creosote, and that cooling from the single wall pipe could be the big reason for it forming. The other reason could be (or at least adding to it) that your wood is not dry enough.

Do you have a moisture meter to measure the moisture of the wood you are burning? It is the best investment I ever made.

Yeah i do have a meter but have been using brikettes with it to ensure dry levels, as i said we've only been here since the spring, we have found out that the previous owner has been burning greenand wet wood so that's the cause of the creosote, we've been busy gathering old felled wood from the land and putting it under cover for next year etc but nothing was left behind for usso the obviously weren't seasoning wood, seems we need to either replace the flue with an insulated one or run it up the inside of the house then?

 

[Jags]

seems we need to either replace the flue with an insulated one or run it up the inside of the house then?

Highly suggested.

You might not get a lot of response for stove selection because back in the states it is fairly rare to find a stove with the water heater attached. Much more common over the pond. What is also common on your side of the world is smaller stoves. I would highly suggest finding a handful of dealers and see what is available in your area.

Old stone house --- GO BIG. I would be looking at the larger end of the stove spectrum.

 

[FionaD]

Hi there, from the UK

With regard to choosing the right stove for your space, have a look here, you'll get the sizing in European lingo, rather than in BTUs etc, as used in the US. It also gives you the option to pick your house style; i.e. stone, cavity-wall insulated or not, etc.. -

http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/choosing_the_right_stove.html

I figured out the right KIlowatt stove for my needs from this calculator and it was spot on.

And here's some good advice with regard to stoves in conjunction with back boilers....

http://www.boilerstoves.co.uk

I looked into that as an option, but it added a further £5000 to the over all cost so I decided not to bother.....

I know I have all the righteousness of the converted, but Jotul have an Italian website!

All the best, I am having Italian food envy!

 

[Numero182]

Highly suggested.

You might not get a lot of response for stove selection because back in the states it is fairly rare to find a stove with the water heater attached. Much more common over the pond. What is also common on your side of the world is smaller stoves. I would highly suggest finding a handful of dealers and see what is available in your area.

Old stone house --- GO BIG. I would be looking at the larger end of the stove spectrum.

HI Jags, Thanks for the reply, big is indeed what we're thinking, I guess we just need to make sure it's not too big so that we can't sit in the same room as it will be in our living room/kitchen.

Regarding the flue on the small stove, we're thinking that having a standard flue inside to radiate heat through the bathroom above sounds much more beneficial than spending a huge amount on an insulated flue and not reap the benefits of the extra heat indoors upstairs, this sound like good or flawed logic?

 

[Numero182]

Hi there, from the UK

With regard to choosing the right stove for your space, have a look here, you'll get the sizing in European lingo, rather than in BTUs etc, as used in the US. It also gives you the option to pick your house style; i.e. stone, cavity-wall insulated or not, etc.. -

http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/choosing_the_right_stove.html

I figured out the right KIlowatt stove for my needs from this calculator and it was spot on.

And here's some good advice with regard to stoves in conjunction with back boilers....

http://www.boilerstoves.co.uk

I looked into that as an option, but it added a further £5000 to the over all cost so I decided not to bother.....

I know I have all the righteousness of the converted, but Jotul have an Italian website!

All the best, I am having Italian food envy!

Hi Fiona,

Thanks for the links and the envy

I used the calculator but it suggested a stove with 23kw output!! :-O I'll have another look at it later, that was using the entire house dimensions but the calulator talks of a room calculation, might be worth me calling them.

The second link is very useful and will have a good look through this site, it's going to be a big investment but one we need to get right, electricity is so expensive here if we can get our water heating from the new stove it will improve life here hugely, we have 10 acres of woodland so no shortage of fire wood ;-)

just had a look at the jotul page, some very nice stoves, i think i've heard of these before and there appears to be a dealer less than 20km away!

 

[FionaD]

Hi Fiona,

I used the calculator but it suggested a stove with 23kw output!! :-O I'll have another look at it later, that was using the entire house dimensions but the calulator talks of a room calculation, might be worth me calling them

Yes,the calculation is based on single room size. I can't remember exactly, but I think there is some wee calculation that one can apply if one wants to involve extra rooms. I wanted a stove that would heat our living room and kitchen too, as they are almost open plan, so the basic formula got tweaked. Sorry I can't remember how, but I do recall it didnt involve just applying the entire square footage! Sheesh, You could run an ocean liner with a 23 kW stove!

As it turns out, I can heat not just the two rooms but the whole cottage if I leave the doors open.. An added bonus for sure.

Jotuls certainly have a great reputation. At least having a dealer nearby will give you some styles to look at.

Whatever you go for I know we would love to see the end result pics here!

Had fuisilli carbonara tonight.. Never quite tastes the same in the Cold North...

 

[Numero182]

Hehehe, I've everything tastes better in the sunshine! Although it's getting colder now.
I'll have another look at the calculator but suspect I'll need to get a professional in. I'll email the Jotul people to ask about a stove with a boiler as we're going to put in a linked system with solar thermal panels for hot water in the spring and summer. Of course we can't have the panels without planning permission, quite strict in rural Tuscany. So I imagine the installation won't be until after the winter but I'll certainly post pics when it's in. Can't come quickly enough though, I think this old thing we inherited from the previous owner is rubbish, I know he bought it cheap second hand so doesn't surprise me. Hopefully we can get the work done before the holiday season starts as we can't have work going on if we have paying guests in the apartment downstairs so a bit of a tight window!

 

[gzecc]

Hehehe, I've everything tastes better in the sunshine! Although it's getting colder now.
I'll have another look at the calculator but suspect I'll need to get a professional in. I'll email the Jotul people to ask about a stove with a boiler as we're going to put in a linked system with solar thermal panels for hot water in the spring and summer. Of course we can't have the panels without planning permission, quite strict in rural Tuscany. So I imagine the installation won't be until after the winter but I'll certainly post pics when it's in. Can't come quickly enough though, I think this old thing we inherited from the previous owner is rubbish, I know he bought it cheap second hand so doesn't surprise me. Hopefully we can get the work done before the holiday season starts as we can't have work going on if we have paying guests in the apartment downstairs so a bit of a tight window!

In the mean time, give us some pics of your local area. Can't see too much of the Italian countryside.

 

[Numero182]

hope that works! It's the view of the local village from our garden. ;-)

 

[FionaD]

So beautiful... How blessed you are

 

[Numero182]

Might be feeling less than blessed when the cold hits if we can't get warm!

 

[FionaD]

This time next year you'll be telling stories about it all..

 

[begreen]

Just hit here. It was 55F yesterday at 10am. By noon it had dropped 15 degrees. Then the winds shifted to the north and this morning it's 30F with a 15-30mph wind. Woke up to a bit of snow too. It will be in the twenties tonight.

 

[FionaD]

Looks like a Christmas card, BeGreen. Still above freezing here, but set to change as soon as we enter dec. must admit I'm looking forward to putting the stove through its paces.

 

[Numero182]

Very pretty pic begreen! Like Fiona says, wouldn't look out of place on a Christmas card, just needs a Robin somewhere.

 

[Jags]

egarding the flue on the small stove, we're thinking that having a standard flue inside to radiate heat through the bathroom above sounds much more beneficial than spending a huge amount on an insulated flue and not reap the benefits of the extra heat indoors upstairs, this sound like good or flawed logic?

I am afraid to say that this is a bit flawed. With newer stoves (EPA), you have to be conscious about stove pipe temps. If the pipe cools too much it creates a dangerous condition for creosote accumulation. Take a look at some of the brands of pipe available in your area - most will have acceptable install diagrams on their websites.

 

[smokedragon]

I used the calculator but it suggested a stove with 23kw output!! :-O

I can't speak for every situation, but I looked at my current non-wood heat system. I have heat pump with a backup electric strip heat. It is rated at 20kW, which will absolutely heat this home. That translates to 252,000 Btu per hour (if that heat source ran 100% of the time). Their calculator said I needed a stove that output 44.8 kW, so I think their numbers are a tad bit off.

Typically if you take that kW rating of my electric heat, it would need to run say 15 - 25% of the time. This is a Btu rating between 38,000 and 63,000 Btu/hr. My stove will produce that. And on all but the absolute coldest nights, it will heat our entire house. On the very coldest nights, I must close my uninsulated workshop to keep the heat from coming on.

That said, I still agree with Jags

GO BIG. I would be looking at the larger end of the stove spectrum.

 

[Numero182]

I am afraid to say that this is a bit flawed. With newer stoves (EPA), you have to be conscious about stove pipe temps. If the pipe cools too much it creates a dangerous condition for creosote accumulation. Take a look at some of the brands of pipe available in your area - most will have acceptable install diagrams on their websites.

Hi Jags, here is a picture of the small stove we've been left which is the secondary ground floor one and the one with the metres of external flue giving us condensation issues, the stove heats the room it's in well but since the outside temp has dropped we can't use it because of us getting a puddle of creosote indoors, not to mention the stink! Were planning to keep this stove but sort the flue one way or the other, do you think that running the flue up through the inside is unworkable?

 

[Numero182]

I can't speak for every situation, but I looked at my current non-wood heat system. I have heat pump with a backup electric strip heat. It is rated at 20kW, which will absolutely heat this home. That translates to 252,000 Btu per hour (if that heat source ran 100% of the time). Their calculator said I needed a stove that output 44.8 kW, so I think their numbers are a tad bit off.

Typically if you take that kW rating of my electric heat, it would need to run say 15 - 25% of the time. This is a Btu rating between 38,000 and 63,000 Btu/hr. My stove will produce that. And on all but the absolute coldest nights, it will heat our entire house. On the very coldest nights, I must close my uninsulated workshop to keep the heat from coming on.

That said, I still agree with Jags

Hi smokedragon, thanks for the reply.

Does sound like their numbers are off then.

I've been doing some more reading and looking at stoves online to try and make sure I'm best informed to make the right decision when the time comes.

We no shortage of wood here, we bought the place because of it, so a big stove is no issue really, the only concern is that if we get one large enough to warm the whole house whether it'll be too hot to be sat next to it? So while we'd prefer to just have the stove to heat the house I'm starting to wonder now if i should be considering a stove that will run radiators around the home and puts out less into the room?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Out of interest, here's what we inherited...

 

[Jags]

Wow - that is a couple of neat old units.

If you can make it work I actually "suggest" an internal pipe. I was having issues with your description of single wall pipe up to ceiling penetration/floor - then back to single wall pipe in the room to pull heat off the pipe (as I understood it). That is not allowed as far as I know.

 

[Numero182]

Wow - that is a couple of neat old units.

If you can make it work I actually "suggest" an internal pipe. I was having issues with your description of single wall pipe up to ceiling penetration/floor - then back to single wall pipe in the room to pull heat off the pipe (as I understood it). That is not allowed as far as I know.

Sorry, my newbie lingo confusing matters, we are indeed hoping to run the single wall flue that you can see coming out of that tall narrow stove completely internally so up through the floor above, up the wall in the room above and then out the roof, will stop the condensate issues and mean we can heat the room above a little from the flue pipe running through it. The floors here in Tuscany are made of wooden beams spaced at around 12 inches and in between is terracotta tile so i just need to aim centrally between the beams then. That is if we're both understanding each other correctly now!? [emoji3]

 

[Jags]

will stop the condensate issues and mean we can heat the room above a little from the flue pipe running through it.

This is the part that may cause trouble. I am not sure of your code in Italy, but in the states, once is has passed through a ceiling connections it is usually run with insulated pipe and often within an internal chase. I doubt that you would get too much heat off of the pipe.
It may be different there and that is the reason that I suggested to look up the brands available to you. They often have diagrams of acceptable installations.

 

[Numero182]

This is the part that may cause trouble. I am not sure of your code in Italy, but in the states, once is has passed through a ceiling connections it is usually run with insulated pipe and often within an internal chase. I doubt that you would get too much heat off of the pipe.
It may be different there and that is the reason that I suggested to look up the brands available to you. They often have diagrams of acceptable installations.

Ah i see! Ok now we're on the same page.

Thanks again Jags, I'm just going by what some friends have done in their place down the road here but i think it was a bit of a diy job so rules wouldn't have been an issue.

With the system we're trying to put in,linked with solar thermal and a back electric heater heater we've no choice but to contract this work out so we'll be at the mercy of them and the regs here.

If not allowed then we can always go to an insulated flue i guess.