ICF with radiant

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Paddy60

New Member
Dec 27, 2011
3
Southern IN
Hello all, first post.

A little back ground; We are in the final stages of completing our new home. The home has ICF walls, (Insulated Concrete Forms) with concrete floors on steel bar joists. The rubber/concrete roof is flat with polyiso above and below, R-70

The home is 5000 sq-ft on a 3000 sq-ft basement. I know, way to big. It's a lake house with plans to attract the kids/grand kids back. There are two stories on the basement. It has a large open area to both levels 30' by 30'. All windows are triple pane with lots of glass to the South.

All the non basement floors are 4" slabs suspended, polyiso insulated from below. The floors have radiant tubes. There are 7 zones each with thermostats in air and slab. I had the system with zones to the guest rooms so they would be shut down during the off season. The radiant system was designed by NRT, an East coast design group. Good guys. The system has ele on demand boiler, with provisions for alternative heat source. I looked at solar as this source but IN is cloudy in the winter to often. So wood is the best solar energy here.

The house is also ducted for AC/ heat pump.

The radiant main manifold and control panel is located in the basement. The mechanical room is 16' by 16' with only other equipment in there is a water heater and air handeler. lots of room. Next to the mech room is the staircase and possible a good spot for storage. It is under a landing, size-> 5' by 5' by 11'.

In Southern Indiana, wood is plentiful. Mostly hardwoods. I work from home except when I need to travel. I think I have the perfect place for a wood boiler. Up to now, we have not used the radiant system. We have used the heat pump.

The flue will need to be external, about 30'.

I have lurked on this site for a couple of days and still have a few questions. I definitely will go with storage but trying to fully understand pressurised vs. non pressurised. If pressurised, you just plumb the boiler direct to the storage without a heat exchanger? And then the radiant system has a heat exchanger in the storage tank? My radiant panel has a thermostat controlled valve that allow the ele boiler to by pass the storage if below a set temp. The home demand is for water at 105 deg F. I assume if the storage tank is at 175 deg f, it allows mixing of the loop returns with the 175 deg water.

So if my assumption is correct about pressure system = no heat exchanger from boiler, what other advantages are there to go pressurized? I plan to have a large storage tank, I have room. I would prefer to have dedicated burns to build up the heat in the tank and let the fire go out.

We can and do have the power go out and some times for days. Last winter the power was out for 5 days, but we new it was coming due to an ice storm. (house temp only dropped 5 deg while the outside temps were in the teens). So that brings the next question; thermal siphoning. Does pressurized or not affect thermal siphoning? The tank will be at the same level as the boiler. Ideally, I'd like to have a battery backup to 1) have safety during a power outage and 2) actually have heat!

Ok with my first post with so much. here are a few photos. Radiant panel, proposed storage under stair landing and the sun room

Patrick T
 

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Welcome aboard Patrick, you've come to the right place to get some great contradicting, snarky and sometimes even helpful advice.

I'm sure a lot of us wish we had your problems. It seems to me like you have a Prius of a house and you're considering swapping a Detroit Diesel into it. Sure you might save some money at some point in the future, but with the excellent setup you have already, how many decades will it take to pay off a boiler set up over the cost of running a heat pump? not to mention the smoke, clunkiness etc.

There is no need for any heat exchanger with pressurised storage and radiant. With heat loss of 1 degree per DAY, and that much concrete (some of it exposed in the pic?), there is no need for any storage beyond the concrete and DHW.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article-categories/332/Gravity-Hot-Water-Heating

This is a great site if you want to understand thermosiphoning. A thermosiphoning heat exchanger into unpressurised storage could be done, but why bother?

Another site to ponder is builditsolar.com, maybe not up your alley, but a simple solar system for hot water and a little heat might make more sense than a boiler?

edit: also, radiant floors are a great idea, I love mine and they work great with solar (low temp).
But, don't expect them to be more comfortable because they're heated. With as tight of a house as you have, the floors will be the same temp as the air, unless you go with a wood boiler and open the windows to get warm floors without excessive air temp.
 
Nice house. I used ICF for my basement (2500 SF) and Cypress Logs for the rest. We have considered an earth sheltered house for the second house on the property (family farm). This would be ICF with a southern exposure.

I have my boiler in an outbuilding with storage in the basement. It can be a self sufficient hobby. What are your goals? Energy cost savings, self sufficiency, etc? My mid term goal is self sufficiency with wood heat (44 acres of supply) and PV electric. No reliance on utilities for living. A good option in my opinion.
 
Hey welcome Paddy,
I also used NRT for my design work, yep, a good bunch there. I worked with Rob and he knew that I wanted to use a wood boiler and really set me up well. I'd go back to them for any advice and questions. Just out of curosity, how many yards of 'crete in your house? Just wait until you have all those slabs toasty warm, mmm mmm good!
 
A major concern with high mass radiant systems in low-E structures is the "flywheel" effect of all that concrete. We have found that the best way is to to use the radiant surface for a base temperature heating supply and then adding some fast response, low mass emitters like steel panel radiators to pickup the last 5-8* of indoor temp. It is extremely difficult to regulate temperature in the structure especially in the shoulder seasons due to outdoor temp swings. You will find that turning your thermostat up/down has no effect on indoor temp for a long time. Like 6-10 hours. I have customers who do it with systems using outdoor reset of water temp and they usually arrive at the conclusion that turning the stat up at night result in a warm house during the day and down in the morning results in a cooler house at night.


We just started a discussion on radiant heating in high performance homes over at www.healthyheating.com Look for the article titled "elephant in the room"
 
I'm also in an ICF house with radiant floor heating.
I'm keeping my temps constant. Like 67F in the down stairs.
After living here for almost 10 years i figured that is saves around 15-20% when you keep it at a constant temp.
 
All, thanks for the welcome.

general reply and comments. Though the heat pump is handy for Fall and spring, the electric elements kick in at cold temps. The thermal mass also affects the heat pump. during the summer, the AC would kick on during the cool nights. That is good for eficiency. same can be true for heat pump heating but if it's sunny, house temp will rise a few degrees due to the wall of south facing glass. We have over hangs that block the sun during the summer. so far the balance is working good.

We have 60 yards of exposed concrete floors and another 30 - 40 yards of interior concrete walls and stairs. I don't want the concrete to replace water storage due to temp swings. don't want the wife getting to used to 75 deg than feeling cold at 67 deg!

I would like to save heating costs but also have heat when the power is out. So I feel the storage will help span a one or two day outage. If the thermal siphon could actually work, I might be able to keep charging the tank with small hot fires? Then use a battery bank with inverter to run the radiant panel.

To keep costs down, I could opt for a non gasser.
 
If you are going to go to the expense at all of a wood boiler- where install, storage, and controls will be a substantial cost, especially to integrate for really top flight operation with storage and a house as refined and carefully thought out as yours, don't cut costs on a non-gasification boiler.

The gasification boilers burn so much more cleanly and efficiently it's like a whole different technology, in all sorts of ways. Never even have to think about creosote in the chimney.

Why put a Yugo engine in an Audi? (or Chevy Vega engine in a Corvette, however you prefer your auto analogies).

Or just get a Garn and build it a little superinsulated bunker near but separate from the house- no chimney needed at all. Instant foolproof integration of boiler and storage.

DO get a boiler that is really easy to clean (the fire tubes/ heat exchanger) and light. Substantial variations exist with those factors.

Good luck
 
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