Interesting discussion elsewhere on "Makeup Air" for woodstoves

Experts say don't use an oak. There's even a sticky to a book that recommends against it, here on Hearth.com.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewannounce/85488_2/

appliances that are vented by natural chimney draft should draw the air required for combustion from the room in which they are located

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woodmiser said:

Experts say don't use an oak. There's even a sticky to a book that recommends against it, here on Hearth.com.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewannounce/85488_2/

appliances that are vented by natural chimney draft should draw the air required for combustion from the room in which they are located

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Negative. At least as many "experts" say you should use an OAK. There are two sides to this debate that is as old as OAK's themselves and I side on the put it in side of that debate.

woodmiser said:

Experts say don't use an oak...

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While John does have a lot of good info, IMHO he exaggerates some things to the point of it looking like junk science.

I support the use of OAKs provided they are installed correctly and for the right reasons.

Highbeam said:

woodmiser said:

Experts say don't use an oak. There's even a sticky to a book that recommends against it, here on Hearth.com.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewannounce/85488_2/

appliances that are vented by natural chimney draft should draw the air required for combustion from the room in which they are located

Click to expand...

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Negative. At least as many "experts" say you should use an OAK. There are two sides to this debate that is as old as OAK's themselves and I side on the put it in side of that debate.

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For my stove the 'experts' whose opinion matters are the ones who wrote the building code. I am required to use an OAK. I sure hope they were experts who wrote the code.

I'm just quoting the sticky. I'm not an expert. I did read it and thought it was quite detailed as to why it should not be the norm. I also believe most do not use it. Many say do not install it unless there is an identified reason. Don't just do it because you "think" you need it.

Can somebody quote anyone else that has specific contrary detailed data on the subject matter? I am trying to learn as much as possible about home pressure and it's effects on my two stoves.

For my stove the ‘experts’ whose opinion matters are the ones who wrote the building code. I am required to use an OAK. I sure hope they were experts who wrote the code.

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If you read the article it specifically states that many building codes adopted the requirement prematurely, well before reliable data was available to support it. What John is saying is that it is way more complicated than just adding a hose to your stove. You need to read the whole online book to understand where he is coming from. Where is the data your so called experts who wrote the code derived from?

Wood Duck said:

For my stove the 'experts' whose opinion matters are the ones who wrote the building code. I am required to use an OAK...

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It was a code requirement when I installed mine but I would have installed it even if it wasn't required by code.

The article the OP referenced is not just about OAKs but of makeup air in general which can be two very different needs. Even on the topic of makeup air, John draws upon extremes.

What symptoms might I experience that would indicate the need for outside air?

"For my stove the ‘experts’ whose opinion matters are the ones who wrote the building code. I am required to use an OAK. I sure hope they were experts who wrote the code."
Some codes are overreactive corrections to things done by people who are a waste of oxygen!

Which is why in most areas there is no OAK requirement. More, by a long shot, of the so-called code experts do not require OAK than do.. Today's newer stove use even less air than the old smoke dragons.

WA state requires OAKs in all homes. I think that all canadian and all US mobile homes require an OAK.

It was required in my stickbuilt home but I would have installed one even if it wasn't. It is the intelligent thing to do unless it is prohibitvely expensive or complicated for your particular installation.

Everybody should use an OAK. There is no downside.

Who is John? I can't follow this. Use their stage name please.

Ehouse

Ehouse said:

Who is John? I can't follow this. Use their stage name please.

Ehouse

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I assume they are referring to John Gulland who helps do www.woodheat.org

Highbeam said:

WA state requires OAKs in all homes. I think that all canadian and all US mobile homes require an OAK.

It was required in my stickbuilt home but I would have installed one even if it wasn't. It is the intelligent thing to do unless it is prohibitvely expensive or complicated for your particular installation.

Everybody should use an OAK. There is no downside.

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What is the upside? In extremes their certainly can be downsides. Usually when testing is done on life critical systems, they go to extremes. Some here think that is wrong?

Do you have a link to the RCW that WA state requires OAKs?

thechimneysweep stated "The wording of the law as eventually enacted leaves room for interpretation by the state’s individual code authorities."

Maybe the west side counties more strictly adhere to requiring an OAK? I doubt many on the east side of the mountains do. They didn't in my case either.

Highbeam said:

WA state requires OAKs in all homes. I think that all canadian and all US mobile homes require an OAK.

It was required in my stickbuilt home but I would have installed one even if it wasn't. It is the intelligent thing to do unless it is prohibitvely expensive or complicated for your particular installation.

Everybody should use an OAK. There is no downside.

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woodmiser said:

Highbeam said:

WA state requires OAKs in all homes. I think that all canadian and all US mobile homes require an OAK.

It was required in my stickbuilt home but I would have installed one even if it wasn't. It is the intelligent thing to do unless it is prohibitvely expensive or complicated for your particular installation.

Everybody should use an OAK. There is no downside.

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What is the upside? In extremes their certainly can be downsides. Usually when testing is done on life critical systems, they go to extremes. Some here think that is wrong?

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I agree with the modern codes and the statement that every wood burning appliance should have an outside air supply. In simplest terms, the main upside is that the air used for burning your fire is not from your heated home, meaning that the flue does not suck all the warm air out of your house while the fire is burning. I do not see why there is any argument over this myself, other than the potential safety issue of backfires into the OAK venting. I have an OAK in my Earth Stove and it works great. The design prevents any back flaming into the OAK. The effects of the OAK in my home are easilly tested and noticable. If I crack the firebox door and cover up the OAK intake vents outside, the room that the stove is in gets pretty cold pretty fast. The draft from the fire is huge. The previous owner of this home sourced the OAK under the house. That chilled the crawlspace, and I have added insulated ducting to source the air from an outside vent on the perimiter wall. The crawlspace is now at least 10 degrees warmer than before.

I am amused with the many posted arguements against OAKs. It seems that the prevailing paradigm is that we need to sustain old leaky draft homes for "health" reasons. However that flies directly in the face of heating efficiency and energy use. Newer homes are tighter by design and have less air exchange. In the case of either a leaky or tight home though, I do not see any advantage of sourcing air from inside the home. To turn the question back around again, where is the downside? I am amazed/amused/appauled that they are not included in every wood furnace sold.

Treacherous said:

Do you have a link to the RCW that WA state requires OAKs?

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I have never found a source reference to WA state codes requiring OAKs for gas, oil and wood burning that is stated on the ChimneySweep site. The reference to those building code requirements seem to stem from posted King Country DDES laws and requirements, from what I can find online.

However, their statement that mobile homes must have an outside air supply for all wood burning stoves is indeed a HUD requirement. So any wood burning stove that is apporved for mobile home use with a tag stating such will have an OAK.

I'm not against outside air for wood stoves. First I found that article on woodheat.org and then I found the sticky here linking to a book by John Gullard.
Everytime it gets mentioned people here jump on it and say it's bogus.

So lets see a technical article with documented data that says outside air is the way to go and documents why... not some code written by some kneejerk.

woodmiser said:

Everytime it gets mentioned people here jump on it and say it's bogus.

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What's your definition of "bogus"? John makes some valid points but IMHO he puts a slant on facts to support his view.

I have always recognized the risk of flue reversal and have always advised that the installation of an OAK take that into consideration. I will reiterate that installing an OAK to fix a problem may be the wrong reason and the problem needs to be fixed at the root. In some cases an OAK can make a problem worse.

On the topic of general make-up air that is not a dedicated, direct coupled OAK, I am perplexed by some of John's comments. In his book he mixes facts about open fireplaces and stoves to support his view.

All good info. I see no research done that tells me I need one for any reason. So why on earth would I do something that may be unnecessary. Another member posted a while back about this who was considering adding outside air. He came to the same conclusion as me. Don't install it if it's not required by code. Enjoy the stove. Why add something that you have no real substantiating data to show it's necessary and no data showing a proper installation? You have people on here showing how they did their install with no backup data to support the design or reason why.

Right now I run two stoves and no OAK. Is there a publication I can read that describes why I must use outside air? Are there any studies done that show why I need it?

And one more time.... what symptoms might I be experiencing that would point to the need for outside air?

My only argument here is with regards to adding something to a system without knowing if it is necessary and in fact could pose a problem in the future. Why punch a hole in my house for something that I don't need? Most homes have plenty of air for these stoves and it's a good thing to draw in fresh air from leaks generally speaking.

You keep using words like "need, must, necessary, required by code, etc." so your bias is very transparent and nobody here will convince you otherwise. Why then must you carry your bias into every thread on this topic? If you cannot accept any degree of risk, how do you manage to walk? Walking is after all, just controlled falling and not without risk.

OK lets not go personal please.

You can very easily convince me. But not like that. I shall bow out of this thread.

Before I ran an OAK in my basement install the stove competed with the bathroom fan, water heater and clothes dryer. You could actually see the fire die down when it was competing for air and the old upstairs fireplace would make up for the lost air by pulling cold air down it's chimney sometimes along with the basement stoves exhaust. Installing the OAK eliminated this.

I had never heard of an OAK until I found this forum, but it makes sense to me. I’ve never used one, but I may consider incorporating one in the future with my stove.

My impression is, unless mandated by code, try it without it first and then if you think it will improve performance then give it a shot. If I’m happy with my car’s stock engine why would I supe it up when it’s brand new?

Of course if the code, space size, tightness, floor plan or other considerations made me think that it is an obvious necessity then I would probably install it with one from the get go.
One question I have is if whether the stove is a cat stove or not is a consideration? I would think that if the cat was engaged the amount of negative draft would be less, but I don’t know.