Questions and thoughts before first insert purchase.

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freddypd

freddypd

Burning Hunk
Jan 3, 2012
133
Long Island NY
Thanks for all the info received so far from exploring this forum. I would like to purchase a wood insert for my existing fireplace. I am trying to decide between the VC Montpelier and the Xtrodinair 33. 2 dealers recommend the Xtrodinair and 1 recommends the VC. I have a ranch with a pretty open floor plan. Maybe about 2000 sq feet on the main floor. I do have cathedral ceilings in the kitchen. Should I install a ceiling fan for better circulation?

- Both inserts about the same install price (about $4200), both equal quality?
- My wife's big concern is the smell of smoke. We went to a friends house for him to show us his and the house smelled like smoke. Not the nice wood burning chimney smell but smoke. He did have his doors open to demonstrate. Is that a big concern?
- How important is the block off plate and/or insulation if the top of the chimney is completely sealed off? None of the 3 dealers mentioned these items, but I didn't ask yet either.

Thanks in advance!

Mantle and surround was a DIY project.
fp.jpg


Not to scale....
plan.jpg
 
Fred...I'll comment on the smoke smell....There should be none. The person who had the smoke smell in the house might have had a fan on or dryer, something for the smoke to be pulled into the room. Smoke rises naturally.
 
I have a stove, not an insert, but I can burn with very close to zero smoke smell in the house. I can use the stove without my super-sensitive wife even knowing it is burning. With my stove smoke will escape from the stove if I open the door before the wood is burnt down to coals, so when i load the stove I wait until it is all coals, load for a several hour long burn, then leave it alone except for adjusting the air intake. In addition to eliminating smoke smell in the house this is an efficient way to use the stove. I couldn't have the door open and expect no smell. If your friend had his door open it suggests he might not really care about the smoke smell. If you do care you'll operate the stove differently than he does.

My stove is downstairs so when I reload I close the door leading upstairs. If some smoke escapes I open windows on each side of the downstairs and vent some air before I reopen the door leading upstairs. At my house there is generally a breeze so air will move right through the stove room. Sure, I lose a little heat with the air but it seems like most of the heat in the room is in the solid stuff, not in the air, so the room doesn't really cool off much. for us it is worth losing a little heat to minimize the smoke smell.
 
The blockoff plate and insullated liner are recommended for exterior chimneys like yours. They help keep heat going into your house instead of up the chimney. That said, my insert was installed before I found Hearth.com and knew of such things. Other than taking a little longer to warm up on a cold start than it might otherwise, it puts out plenty of heat.

Smoke is not an issue as long as you wait until the fire burns down to coals to reload, as Wood Duck suggested, open the draft for a couple of minutes before opening the stove door, and open the door very slowly so you don't pull smoke out of the firebox. A ceiling fan is good idea, particularly with a cathedral ceiling. Run it in reverse in the winter to draw cool air up and force the warm air down the walls.

Before Dennis (Backwoods Savage) chimes in, I'll ask the question--how's your wood supply? It's almost impossible to buy dry (truly seasoned) wood this time of year. You may be better off burning wood bricks (Bio/Geo/Eco/Envi or other brands) this year and work on your wood supply for next year.

I can't comment on the choice between the actual inserts, since I'm not familiar with them. All other things being equal, but the one your wife likes. :lol:

Welcome to the forum! It's nice to have another Fred here. There a few of us.
 
That lip on the fireplace may be a problem if the stove protrudes into the room a bit, maybe not? As far as smell, you come into my home and not even know i am burning it. I can burn my stove with the door open and it goes up the chimney. I get smoke sometimes if i have it packed and open it buring and dont open the door slow, or i am starting a fire with a cold chimney. But other than that you dont smell anything.
 
I can attest to the importance of a well sealed and insulated block off. This is my first year with a good one after burning two seasons with a leaky piece of sheet metal. It holds much more heat in the house. If you ask them about a block off at the bottom and they look confused, just do it yourself with the knowledge from this site, or show them how you want it done during installation. I was able to install mine with the stove in place.

Never had any smoke smell. If they do, poor draft or negative air pressure in the house.

Cant give any opinion on either of those stoves
 
Agreed you should not smell smoke. Often this is a sign of weak draft, but sometimes it's just poor stove operation. I noticed a friend's installations smoked a lot when he opened the stove doors. On one stove he had the damper closed about 3/4s while feeding the fire. He didn't seem to notice the smoke, yet it was gagging me.
 
clemsonfor said:
That lip on the fireplace may be a problem if the stove protrudes into the room a bit, maybe not?
Click to expand...

Proabably a flush-face insert would work better for this installation.
 
fredarm said:
The blockoff plate and insullated liner are recommended for exterior chimneys like yours. They help keep heat going into your house instead of up the chimney. That said, my insert was installed before I found Hearth.com and knew of such things. Other than taking a little longer to warm up on a cold start than it might otherwise, it puts out plenty of heat.

Smoke is not an issue as long as you wait until the fire burns down to coals to reload, as Wood Duck suggested, open the draft for a couple of minutes before opening the stove door, and open the door very slowly so you don't pull smoke out of the firebox. A ceiling fan is good idea, particularly with a cathedral ceiling. Run it in reverse in the winter to draw cool air up and force the warm air down the walls.

Before Dennis (Backwoods Savage) chimes in, I'll ask the question--how's your wood supply? It's almost impossible to buy dry (truly seasoned) wood this time of year. You may be better off burning wood bricks (Bio/Geo/Eco/Envi or other brands) this year and work on your wood supply for next year.

I can't comment on the choice between the actual inserts, since I'm not familiar with them. All other things being equal, but the one your wife likes. :lol:

Welcome to the forum! It's nice to have another Fred here. There a few of us.
Click to expand...

Great info. I didn't even think of the wood supply yet. You are right. Bad time of year to be looking for seasoned wood huh?
 
Your work on the mantle and surround is beautiful. My initial reaction to the proposed project is that the Clearances To Combustibles (CTC's) might turn out to be a deal breaker here, depending on your finding an insert that will fit your fireplace, satisfy your heating needs, and allow all that gorgeous wood to stay where it is. Lots of things must be taken into consideration. Rick
 
Here is the Xtrodinair 33 put in with a curved surround. I kinda like this one a little better.

images-2.jpg


Here it is with a square surround. I thought the curved surround would look nice since the mantel has a curve to it as does all the interior doors in the home. Not sure if it would look silly if the curve of the surround is different from the curve of the mantle.

F_33EPlus_Arch_1.jpg
 
fossil said:
Your work on the mantle and surround is beautiful. My initial reaction to the proposed project is that the Clearances To Combustibles (CTC's) might turn out to be a deal breaker here, depending on your finding an insert that will fit your fireplace, satisfy your heating needs, and allow all that gorgeous wood to stay where it is. Lots of things must be taken into consideration. Rick
Click to expand...

Rick,

Thanks for the input and the compliment.

I think I measured all the clearances and the only one in question would be the curved piece of wood by about 1-1.5 ". Since I built the mantle I believe I could re do the curve and would be within manufacturer recommendations. I hope I measured correctly!
 
This link will lead you to the Montpelier User Manual:

http://literature.mhsc.com/vermont_castings/manuals/30004403_Montpelier_11.pdf

Page 6 covers the dimensions and clearance to combustibles.

A possible problem is that the front leveling legs of the Montpelier are about a half inch forward of the face of the fireplace. If the insert does not sit level you will not be able to adjust it with the legs. I recently did an install in a similar fireplace with the step at the bottom. We had to get a piece of matching stone cut to go across the bottom. The stone gave the leveling legs something to lean on.

KaptJaq


Edited for spelling and run-on sentence
 
KaptJaq said:
This link will lead you to the Montpelier User Manual:

http://literature.mhsc.com/vermont_castings/manuals/30004403_Montpelier_11.pdf

Page 6 covers the dimensions and clearance to combustibles.

A possible problem is that the fron leveling legs of the Montpelier are about a half inch forward of the face of the fireplace. If the insert does not sit level you will not be able to adjust it with the legs. On an install I recently did in a similar fireplace with the step at the bottom we had to get a piece of matching stone cut to go across the bottom so the leveling legs had something to lean on.

KaptJaq
Click to expand...

Thanks, I will look into that. I thought it was a flush insert. I didn't think it would stick out. I know there are some larger ones that are designed to stick out, but I didn't want that look.
 
The brochure states "Minimum clearance to combustibles" and "M" is 39".......the online manual says "M" is non combustible. Am I reading these wrong? According to the 1st picture I would have to remove the curved wood piece below the mantel. Am I looking too much into this or is this a real concern?
 
freddypd said:
The brochure states "Minimum clearance to combustibles" and "M" is 39".......the online manual says "M" is non combustible. Am I reading these wrong? According to the 1st picture I would have to remove the curved wood piece below the mantel. Am I looking too much into this or is this a real concern?
Click to expand...


The "M" dimension is to the top of the non-combustible fireplace facing. If your fireplace opening is surrounded by tiles or bricks those tile or bricks must be at least 39 inches above the hearth or in your case the bottom of the insert. The "N" dimension (41.5 inches) is to the mantel or any combustible material that is not flush to the face of the fireplace. The way I read this manual is that there can be a 2.5" strip (41.5-39) of wood or other combustible trim above the tile/brick face of the fireplace and below the mantle as long as it is flush to the face of the fireplace.

As with the Montpelier, the x33 also protrudes a little over an inch from the face of the fireplace. This is necessary so the surround can overlap the face of the old fireplace. The difference is that the leveler legs on the x33 are in the rear of the firebox so there is no need to build out the bottom of the fireplace face. There are also brief instructions for creating a recessed installation by trimming the surround panels to fit within the old fireplace. This would eliminate the 1.25" overhang.

KaptJaq
 
I've only had smoke escape on a rare occasion, 99.9% of the time it was a cold flue issue. I actually like the smell of woodsmoke, so I am tuned in to it, I never smell it in our house (well, except when the neighbors crank their smoke dragon, lol).

Do the dealers near you have models burning on their floor? The dealer we got ours from has several, and also no smoke smell...

We got our stove in October, a few weeks after closing on the Cottage, so our wood supply has been sketchy (we stacked some for next year that was supposed to be seasoned and was no where near). We have been using Eco bricks to suppliment what we did get and like them.
 
I just got the xtraordinair 33 and so far so good. I went with this flush insert for the because of my mantle clearances. I only had to widen my side facings. With the other inserts I was looking at I would have pretty much had to rip my whole mantle out.

I also got a good deal on last years model xtrordinair with the split door, about 1/3 off the price.
 
Freddypd,
That manual says 39" to the top facing, you have 38.5 to the highest part of the arch. You need to measure the lowest part of the arch that would fall directly above the stove. Meaning, measure up from top corner of stove to the arch. Certainly would fall short of clearance there. It looks like you would have enough to side facing, according to your sketch.
I would work on trying to adjust your top facing or try something that would pass with what you have. Wet wood can cause lots of problems, you'd be hard pressed to find seasoned dry wood this time of year or any time of year for that matter. At the very least, get your next year's supply now so it has at least one year to season. You can try to burn some this year and see how it goes. 99% of the time results are not very good! Mixing in with some pressed bricks or logs may help. If you have a good drafting set up compatible with the stove/insert you select, smoke should not be a problem. I'm not familiar with either insert, but most VC stoves I know require at least 16 ft. from the top of the appliance to the top of the chimney/liner. Most people here would probably recommend a block off plate, I would not put a stove in my fireplace without one. They are easy to make and really help to keep the heat in the house, rather than outdoors. Yes, the top is sealed, but the masonry really has a way of sucking up heat!
Good luck, beatiful job on the trim!
 
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