Smoke Dragon is beating my EPA stove

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S

sebring

Member
Oct 3, 2011
148
PA
I have 2 stoves in my basement. An Englander 30 and a Harman Mark 3 coal stove. Its been warm lately and I allowed the coal stove to burn out so I could clean it out good. I burn hard coal in the Harman, but decided to burn wood for a couple days. In my opinion the smoke dragon Harman puts out more heat and the fires last longer. It has the air intake on the ash door. So the air comes from the bottom through the grates. No secondary burn tubes. The chimney shows more smoke than the Englander.

I think having air come up through the fire is something the EPA stoves have abandoned too quickly. They can still have the air preheated and secondary burn tubes and all the good stuff.
 
the old stoves are still good if you ask me and work just fine.
the epa stoves are another product of goverment telling us what we need and use.
dont get me wrong the new epa's are great but there was nothing wrong with the ol smoker's either.
 
sebring said:
I think having air come up through the fire is something the EPA stoves have abandoned too quickly. They can still have the air preheated and secondary burn tubes and all the good stuff.
Click to expand...

Which of the old wood stoves had the air fed through a grate from the bottom?
 
Lynch said:
the old stoves are still good if you ask me and work just fine.
the epa stoves are another product of goverment telling us what we need and use.
dont get me wrong the new epa's are great but there was nothing wrong with the ol smoker's either.
Click to expand...

Except they're worse for the environment... more smoke and waste out the chimney. The EPAs also cut the needed fuel drastically.
 
I could be wrong, but I think my harman tl300 is an epa stove that brings in air from underneath the grate. I know the primary air control is under the ash lip and the OAK tube is down behind the ash pan.


Lynch said:
the old stoves are still good if you ask me and work just fine.
the epa stoves are another product of goverment telling us what we need and use.
dont get me wrong the new epa's are great but there was nothing wrong with the ol smoker's either.
Click to expand...

I think of it in terms of automobiles, particularly semi trucks. The old 70's semi-trucks defined smoke dragons, lol but now you hardly see any smoke from the newer fuel effecient diesel's. Same with wood stoves, they are just more fuel effecient now.
 
From what I can tell, the TL 300 does not feed from below the coals. Most stoves have their intakes down low, but they are routed through the stove body to preheat the air and deliver it to the air wash and secondary supply. Some stoves do have a direct low and in front air supply too via a boost manifold or similar. And some stove have an added start up air feed.
 
BrotherBart said:
sebring said:
I think having air come up through the fire is something the EPA stoves have abandoned too quickly. They can still have the air preheated and secondary burn tubes and all the good stuff.
Click to expand...

Which of the old wood stoves had the air fed through a grate from the bottom?
Click to expand...

Dutchwest 207 cl not sure about other models.
They had coal/wood option, brass spins dials for over fire air, under fire air and a dial at the top for the cat.

However they state in the manual that the underfire air coming from the ash pan shakers was for coal only. Over fire air knob is stated as wood fire, along with cat knob, for that primative system.

Doesnt stop the older gentelman who has it, when he burns wood from using the underair. No use in explaning, win some lose some.
 
logger said:
Lynch said:
the old stoves are still good if you ask me and work just fine.
the epa stoves are another product of goverment telling us what we need and use.
dont get me wrong the new epa's are great but there was nothing wrong with the ol smoker's either.
Click to expand...

Except they're worse for the environment... more smoke and waste out the chimney. The EPAs also cut the needed fuel drastically.
Click to expand...

+1

Ray
 
Our old woodfurnace would produce much more heat at one time than our EPA wood furnace. The problem with the old was wood consumption, bad spikes in temperatures and short burns. Our 3.5 CF firebox burns longer than our old 6 CF furnace. There's little spikes in temperature and we have burned no lp compared to the old furnace which we seen 200 gallons on top of all the wood. I'll never run another furnace with grates. The EPA design has many benefits, especially burning on a firebrick floor. I can sleep in without worrying about the fire going out. I like to think the new furnace is like using cruise control.
 
BeGreen said:
From what I can tell, the TL 300 does not feed from below the coals. Most stoves have their intakes down low, but they are routed through the stove body to preheat the air and deliver it to the air wash and secondary supply. Some stoves do have a direct low and in front air supply too via a boost manifold or similar. And some stove have an added start up air feed.
Click to expand...
Your right BG i have a TL-300 And most of the air actually comes down from the top. You have the glass air wash primary air. The secondary air is unregulated and preheated in the stove body then comes out of holes in the combustion chamber throat. THe stove does have a grate but no air come up through it unless the ash door is open.
 
Stump_Branch said:
BrotherBart said:
sebring said:
I think having air come up through the fire is something the EPA stoves have abandoned too quickly. They can still have the air preheated and secondary burn tubes and all the good stuff.
Click to expand...

Which of the old wood stoves had the air fed through a grate from the bottom?
Click to expand...

Dutchwest 207 cl not sure about other models.
They had coal/wood option, brass spins dials for over fire air, under fire air and a dial at the top for the cat.

However they state in the manual that the underfire air coming from the ash pan shakers was for coal only. Over fire air knob is stated as wood fire, along with cat knob, for that primative system.

Doesnt stop the older gentelman who has it, when he burns wood from using the underair. No use in explaning, win some lose some.
Click to expand...

My CDW FA264CCL had all three air inlets too and the primary aka underfire air was for burning coal or starting wood fires.. I kept it closed as the secondary air was enough and less risk of overfire..

Ray
 
From my experience my 3 EPA stoves use way less wood than any of my smoke dragon old stoves that i am phasing out. Yes you get some short term high heat from them but you have to feed them constantly. Im most impressed with the way the harman handles reburn,its a more complicated than the englander setup but when up to temp and working i get absolulely zero smoke at all air settings no matter what kind of wood im burning.
 
Back to the OP. is it fair to compare a wood to coal like that? Serious question. I've never burnt coal... Besides, don't you have to have the air come up through the coals to burn them?
 
Danno77 said:
Back to the OP. is it fair to compare a wood to coal like that? Serious question. I've never burnt coal... Besides, don't you have to have the air come up through the coals to burn them?
Click to expand...

I assumed he was burning wood in his coal stove? I figured that would be the only way the OP could make such a comparison.
 
BrotherBart said:
sebring said:
I think having air come up through the fire is something the EPA stoves have abandoned too quickly. They can still have the air preheated and secondary burn tubes and all the good stuff.
Click to expand...

Which of the old wood stoves had the air fed through a grate from the bottom?
Click to expand...


Every circulator I've ever seen. Wood/coal circulators will have overfire air in the feed door, but primary air is under grate on both wood and wood/coal.

ETA: in my opinion the thing the most EPA stoves abandoned too quickly was bi-metallic thermostat controlled air, regardless of where it enters the firebox.
 
rdust said:
Danno77 said:
Back to the OP. is it fair to compare a wood to coal like that? Serious question. I've never burnt coal... Besides, don't you have to have the air come up through the coals to burn them?
Click to expand...

I assumed he was burning wood in his coal stove? I figured that would be the only way the OP could make such a comparison.
Click to expand...
No, I double checked. You are right, he said he wanted to burn wood for a couple of days. My mistake.
 
If you had a good old style stove they were not that bad and if you knew how to run it with dry wood and did not choke it down they did not burn all that dirty. Ya gotta be smarter than the wood you are putting in the stove to get a good clean burn EPA or not.
 
I have now burned both smoke dragons and EPA stoves. Both have heated my homes equally well. I also despise when the government attempts to tell us what to do. I am also pleased when they do something right. IMO they got it right with EPA stoves. I love mine.
 
I don't know if the EPA really needed to get involved in this whole wood stove thing? Local and State Governments were coming out with their own ordinances and pretty much forcing manufactures to produce cleaner burning stoves before the EPA got involved. Let the private sector, State and locals decide what's best for them not the Feds.
 
Todd said:
I don't know if the EPA really needed to get involved in this whole wood stove thing? Local and State Governments were coming out with their own ordinances and pretty much forcing manufactures to produce cleaner burning stoves before the EPA got involved. Let the private sector, State and locals decide what's best for them not the Feds.
Click to expand...

Todd - 999 times out of 1000, I am with you on this, but the one thing that happened BECAUSE the EPA got involved was standardizing. Without that we would have everything under the sun as being acceptable. In the hills of Kentucky they would find xxx acceptable and it would be a completely different thing somewhere else. The MFGs would not be able to keep up.
 
Jags said:
Todd said:
I don't know if the EPA really needed to get involved in this whole wood stove thing? Local and State Governments were coming out with their own ordinances and pretty much forcing manufactures to produce cleaner burning stoves before the EPA got involved. Let the private sector, State and locals decide what's best for them not the Feds.
Click to expand...

Todd - 999 times out of 1000, I am with you on this, but the one thing that happened BECAUSE the EPA got involved was standardizing. Without that we would have everything under the sun as being acceptable. In the hills of Kentucky they would find xxx acceptable and it would be a completely different thing somewhere else. The MFGs would not be able to keep up.
Click to expand...

Do we have standardization now? Doesn't WA State have a tougher standard? Seems like a big manufacture would strive to exceed the lowest gph number so they can sell everywhere and a small mom and pop business wouldn't be forced out of buisiness so quickly. I don't know, I can understand both sides concerns, I just don't think the EPA should have so much power, locals should have more say.
 
Todd said:
Do we have standardization now? Doesn't WA State have a tougher standard? Seems like a big manufacture would strive to exceed the lowest gph number so they can sell everywhere and a small mom and pop business wouldn't be forced out of buisiness so quickly. I don't know, I can understand both sides concerns, I just don't think the EPA should have so much power, locals should have more say.
Click to expand...

I do understand the argument, and yes the EPA has set a "minimum" standard, but that does not mean a state or local can't exceed the requirements. That is where the locals get there say. I am not a fan of the EPA and its all knowing power status, but it is hard to argue with cleaner air and water. I will digress. I don't want to turn this into a politics thread and get it tossed into the can.

To bring this back in line - it would be interesting to do an apples to apples comparison. Weigh the fuel load for each stove, retain the same stove temp and report back on the burn times. That is really the only way to make a claim to one out doing the other.
 
Minus maybe the air control, could you not just run a stove withOUT the secondary process and achieve a comparison?. Bypass open, or maybe on a tube stove, remove the tubes, plug that portion of air, still have to have some baffle as i think even dragons had a small shelf there.

Who wants to hack up a stove?
 
To me there is no comparison in the overall total heat I get out of my Buck cat stove compared to the old dragon I had. No question I could heat up my family room quicker and get it hotter but only for a few hours and would need to do it again. Now I load the same amount of wood. It takes a little longer to get up to temp but keeps the house warm for much longer.
 
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