Empyre Pro Series - Profab 400

That is great to hear. We are very pleased with the Pro Fab line of Boilers. Our customers are impressed with the wood savings and the simplicity of operation.
Pro Fab's customer service is some of the best in the industry.

If you experience any creosote we are recommending a product called CO-Mate. It is a powder developed for large furnace and Co generation plants. works great.

NOT TO HIJACK thread but is there a minimum water temperature on the intake/return side for the profab units. I have a 200 profab outdoor gasser...i guess the min temperature would be the same as other boilers, like 140 degrees? that will be difficult for me i have a high mass house, my storage is in the high mass, so house stays warm throughout morning..but water tems are often 115 or so when i go out to fire it up.

barkeatr said:

NOT TO HIJACK thread but is there a minimum water temperature on the intake/return side for the profab units. I have a 200 profab outdoor gasser...i guess the min temperature would be the same as other boilers, like 140 degrees? that will be difficult for me i have a high mass house, my storage is in the high mass, so house stays warm throughout morning..but water tems are often 115 or so when i go out to fire it up.

Click to expand...

Yes return protection is still needed. It will work fine with low mass. It will recurculate the water in the boiler untill it's warm enough, then mix in the return water a little at a time so as to not shock the boiler and warp the steel. Boilers without return
protection have been Known to go bad in as little as 2 years.

Hi all, I am also running a Pro 200 and I am having great sucess with it, It is way better on wood consumption than the CB 5046 that I ran for 5 years.

barkeatr said:

NOT TO HIJACK thread but is there a minimum water temperature on the intake/return side for the profab units. I have a 200 profab outdoor gasser...i guess the min temperature would be the same as other boilers, like 140 degrees? that will be difficult for me i have a high mass house, my storage is in the high mass, so house stays warm throughout morning..but water tems are often 115 or so when i go out to fire it up.

Click to expand...

The minimum temperature of the water returning to the boiler whether it is a wood, gas or oil boiler is 140F because it will cause the condensation of the products of combustion ( water vapour) in the boiler and you will cause corrosion ( rust).
There are a number of ways of protecting the boiler.
Primary secondary piping system where you have water circulating constantly between the boiler and the house on one loop and then on closely spaced tees run a second pump that puts water through your heat exchanger. One the primary loop you install an aqua stat that in the event the return temp drops beloe 140 it interups the secondary pump until the return temp comes back up above the differential on the aqua stat (5-10 degrees). So at 145 -150 the secondary pump comes back on allowing the cold water to mix with the hot water in the primary circuit. This will continue to cycle until the return water is back up to temperature.

Another option is to install a 3 way valve so that the aqua stat on the constantly circulating loop will only allow water to flow through the heat exchanger when the return water is above 140f.

A thermistic valve can also be used to protect the boiler.

Your wood boiler should set to operate at no less then 170f.

Operating your boiler below 140 will shorten the life of the boiler dramatically, operating it with water coming back at 115f will kill it real quick.

MEHEAT said:

Pelletdude, thanks for the info.

Would it make sense to do away with his storage and just run the Profab unit 24-7 and keep the temp set to 180. Most people I know run their outdoor unit 24-7. Fill it once in the morning and once at night.

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All of our customers run their Pro Fab units with no storage 24/7. The key is too control the return water temp no lower than 140 145f. Burn the correct amount of wood, do not over fill the firebox. An open gasification system is completely different than a closed ( pressurized )one where storage is required or highly recommended.

OK, i understand the boiler protection idea. Looking through the profab manual this morning and there is not really any indication of this...other than a mixing valve at the radiant headers..thanks for the notes on boiler protection LP Dealer. HEy MEHEAT how much wood do you go through?

why does the open gasificatin system not need the storage as much...because they run 24/7 i guess but i still dont understand why its the open factor that makes this difference. is it because there is oxygen in the water ?

this is starting to make sense to me...the folks that have the boiler protection have fires that last longer because the load is taken off when it goes below 140. I suppose thats ok because the fire is still a fairly good fire vs a starved one. i just wasnt understanding how they could go 24/7 without the fire going out. I bet most are doing three properly sized loads a day...or they would be if they lived in upstate NY..

Im going ot have to take a day off from work and get this resolved. I did purchase a solar control system on ebay, maybe i can wire that to resolve this. jeez thanks so much..i have to say they shoudl put this in the manuals more and even send the boilers with the electrical shut off protection at a minimum!

thanks all.

sounds like you have a good system going...best part of it is that your boys are involved.

part of my problem is that my house is too high mass...i can go 6-12 hours or more with no heat...so the boiler runs down...i need to tweak things a bit! my pipe size is too small also at one inch pex. but first i will get after the boiler protection.

TIm

barkeatr said:

OK, i understand the boiler protection idea. Looking through the profab manual this morning and there is not really any indication of this...other than a mixing valve at the radiant headers..thanks for the notes on boiler protection LP Dealer. HEy MEHEAT how much wood do you go through?

why does the open gasificatin system not need the storage as much...because they run 24/7 i guess but i still dont understand why its the open factor that makes this difference. is it because there is oxygen in the water ?

Click to expand...

The low water temp has nothing to do with heat storage or whether it is an open system or not.
Even the traditional outside boilers have an issue with low return water temp it is just that the heat exchange is happening in the big drum fire box and the condensation that forms on the walls is dryed up more often because the fire can get hotter there. But there is still condensing happening and most of the time when the unit rusts and leaks it is blamed on bad steel or a bad weld, well that is not the case, it was caused by corrosion which is excelerated by the moisture.

In order to get the most amount of heat out of the boiler the products of combustion ( water vapour/steam, carbon dioxcide,ect. have to come in contact with the walls of the boiler tubes in order for the heat to be transfered to the water. Laws of physics tell us that the water vapour will condence out on any surface that is +/- 136f or less. It does not matter what the fuel is.

On a gas or oil furnace we automaticly fuel the unit so the return water temp can be controled manualy and many installers do it that way by installing a bypass loop where water from the supply is diverted to the return piping to the boiler, heating it up to above 140f. They install a valve on this bypass piping and after adjusting to the desired temp, remove the handle from the valve so no one will alter it.
Because a wood boiler relys on someone to fuel the unit to maintain temperatures we have to make boiler protection automatic.

Open verses closed systems.
The Empyre gasification boilers are open systems and the advantages are-
- the burning of the wood in the unit is controled and can be stopped and restarted by the amount of air going into the burn chamber. So consider the loading chamber as a hopper.
- because we are controling the burn we do not need a storage tank
- the unit has enough water on board to absorbe the heat of the fire as it goes oyt when the blower shuts down when there is a power outage.
-there is then no need for a dumpzone, wild loop, expansion tank, water feeder, auto fill system, back flow preventer or stand by power system.
- after the power is restored to the unit in most cases the fire will restart on it's own. If there was fuel in the unit when the blower shut off the unit will relight after hrs of laying dormant because of a power interuption or if the thermostat was satisfied.

- the burning of the wood in the unit is controled and can be stopped and restarted by the amount of air going into the burn chamber. So consider the loading chamber as a hopper.

This Is all-so true of a closed system.

not all closed systems have to have a storage tanks.

I like the profab. Just wanted to add those facts

Meheat, Yes the maintance is a little more on my pro 200 gasser. but it is still far less than cutting and stacking that 5 to 6 cords of firewood that I am saving. and there is little to no smoke

ok, i have programmed my house (read:slab) thermostats so they remove the heat load from the profab 200 at 4am in the morning, about the time that the fire is running low and they would start sending below 140 degree water back. the only heat load at that point is the hot water heater which being a insulated tank does not put much load on boiler. THis is good for the family as it better ensures hot water if a shower is being taken early. my high mass house thermostats dont really show a drop in temperature and by six or seven i can reload firebox.

i have also turned up the temperature on my hot water heater ( my hot water heater provides domestic and radiant slab heat) so there is more protection of return water temperaturs. Hey if it turns on twice a week that is going to be like 3 gallons by the end of the winter. I can live with that.

these are the immediate return water boiler protection revisions im making and a longer term solution is in the works.

thanks for the help folks.

barkeater

i'm in my thrid season with my pro200, and this is the first time i've heard of this inline protection. My dealer and even pro fab have never mentioned anything about it. Granted the burner runs 24/7 water heat set a 180 so in therory i should never have that low of return water temps. unless on few occasions that the fire goes out and water temp drops to 115 or so. but with no fire in there i wouldnt think any condensation should form either...and like a previous post the only place ive ever had problems with creoste is back left where the air comes in...i'll take the fan off and run a toilete snake up there a couple of times a year to deal with that. other then that and replacing some bricks this season i've never had any problems with the burner...love it...

hOOGIE, i think its the low temperature (radiant) systems that are especially vunerable to low temperature return. I have been doing a lot of reading on this these last two days. Your probably fine but you should have a way to check the return temperature just in case.

Tim

i just check it a temp. gun...lol i'm way above 140 on my return lines. the only time i have a prob. is if i run the garage hx. it is way to big for my system...smaller hx are in the works right now though...

i wish that was the case with me Hoogie man. but i will get er fixed. that special tool you made, that was to poke up those holes in the firebrick right? not sure why it was seven foot long. My unit is seriorsly plugged...either where you say or the flapper is stuck or its gunked up. Have you taken fan flapper off?

barkineater

Barkeater, I have had to clean my stove once because it got gunked up when I was running in the summer with not so dry wood, This is what I did to make the stove like new. Take off the fan, Take off the flapper -- Make sure the flapper is working freely, Behind the flapper you will find a box maybe 5" deep -- Inside that you will find a square -- triangle box That is where it will be cloged, You will have to break all the black junk out of that box -- There is an air chanel to the left --- to the right -- straight ahead -- and straight up get them all clean, be careful of the insulation in the foward hole. Put everything back together. Inside the firebox remove the left side bricks --- Pay attention to the order that they come out, they are in cequence. Clean the chanel between the left side and the bottom bricks -- There is a slot in the side of your nozzle bricks, Make sure that is clear, I vacume mine. While you have the left side bricks out turn on the fan for a second to make sure you are getting good air flow through that area. Put your bricks back in the order that they came out and your stove will run like it did when it was new. P.S. If you do this service once a year your stove will always burn very clean. Good luck. Dirt Digger

appreciate the detailed breakdown...im headed out there now to giver a good cleaning out! i may have to forgo the innner bricks as there is still a medium fire in there. i have a feeling the fan is gunked however...thanks digger.

Is it just me? or are we really really shy on pics from Empyre Profab boilers? ;-)