Thinking of upgrading my heating and cooling system....Help!

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buzzweiser

New Member
Jan 13, 2012
10
Ohio
Hi all, great forum you have here with TONS of information. Here's my situation, I was hoping to get some advise. I'm in a all electric (furnace and heat pump) 1440 square foot ranch with a full basement. I'm considering upgrading the whole system, this $400+ a month electric bill is killing me. My thoughts were to get a high efficiency heat pump and a pellet burning forced air furnace (Harmon pf100?). So my first question will show how much I know of pellet furnaces.....

Is this do-able? If so does anyone have a similar setup? My hope is to tie the furnace into my existing ductwork and heat the house with it when it's too cold for the heat pump to keep up.

I'm a total newbie to this sort of thing and any advise is appreciated.

Thanks!
buzzweiser
 
Hey thanks for the fast answer! I'm reading the average pellet usage is like 2-3 tons a year. Does this furnace eat a ton of pellets or is it fairly efficient? Is there another brand I should consider also?

Any advise is appreciated!

buzzweiser
 
Fahrenheit and St. Croix also make hot air furnaces, and yes they eat more pellets then stoves do.
 
PF100 will do, But do you need one that big? That's a big furnace for a fairly small house. Might be ok with a smaller furnace. Make sure you stay versatile and go with a multifueler JIC pellets sore and corn or others become more feasible
 
2-3 ton is very conservative. I would be thinking somewhere around 4 (give or take). The Harman has the largest distribution blower. So if your current HVAC is sub-par, I would look into the Harman. But if its a pretty low resistance system and insulated, then you may be a good candidate for the St. Croix or Fahrenheit furnace's. They are less BTU (65,000 Revolution / 50,000 Fahrenheit) and have smaller Blowers, but in the end can definitely get it done for your size home (I am heating 2,180 sq upstairs and the Fahrenheit is in a 850 sq ft uninsulated area of my basement with no Cold air return. So its doing about 3,000 sq. (DISCLAIMER : There is a very large Wood stove with 20 ft of the furnace that runs most of the time/ which does help A LOT).

Furnace is the way to go. My Quad upstairs only sees action when its above 35*-40* or I want to test some new pellets.

I installed several through the wall fans for when we do run the Quad. Keeps the temps just as even as running the Furnace.

Sounds like your on the right track and you have come to the right place for help.
 
Wow, thanks again for all the fast answers! Now i need to find a local dealer/installer and talk with them about pricing. Please keep any and all input coming, there is no substitute for experience, and I appreciate everyone sharing theirs with me!

buzzweiser
 
buzzweiser said:
Wow, thanks again for all the fast answers! Now i need to find a local dealer/installer and talk with them about pricing. Please keep any and all input coming, there is no substitute for experience, and I appreciate everyone sharing theirs with me!

buzzweiser
Click to expand...

Where abouts in Ohio are you located?

What dealers are in your area? Buzzweiser...... Nice screen name ;-P
 
I'm in southern Ohio -- Ross County. I've not started shopping dealers yet. I really wanted to be sure this is going to be a more economical move for us. Anymore we've got to pinch a penny where we can. Like I said in the opening post, my plan is to add a new heatpump and a pellet burning forced air furnace, tying the whole mess into my existing ductwork.

I was also wondering if the thermostat would be able to 'bounce' between the 2 systems for optimum performance.

This upgrade will be alot of money for me and my family, that is why I'm being cautious. My hope is long term I can drastically reduce my energy bills, and kinda let the system pay for itself over time.

I use to be a Budweiser guy (until Yuengling came to Ohio) and have been called buzz since I was a kid, figured the 2 together made a decent login name, lol.

Thanks!
Buzzweiser
 
Just had another question, is there a brand of stove that has a slower feed rate and still delivers good heat? I guess maybe I'm asking about brand to brand pellet feed efficiency, for lack of better words.

Thanks again guys!
 
You gotta burn x amount of pellets to get x amount of btus.

Some stoves can be throttled back to around a pound per hour.

8000 btus is about a pound per hour.

Also using a t-stat reduces pellet consumption.

IMO shorter pellets feed more consistantly.
 
smoke show said:
You gotta burn x amount of pellets to get x amount of btus.

Some stoves can be throttled back to around a pound per hour.

8000 btus is about a pound per hour.

Also using a t-stat reduces pellet consumption.

IMO shorter pellets feed more consistantly.
Click to expand...

Thanks smoke show, I'll remember that!
 
Some stoves can feed less at a lower setting. But the big thing is the exchange. Getting the most heat out of the smallest amount of fuel. Harmans have a great heat exchange system.

Most furnaces have a pretty good system also. They are contained within another shell. Hot air comes out of the Heat exchange tubes (18 on my Fahrenheit) and also around the firebox. Which makes them pretty efficient.

So its not just the feed rates, its also the efficiency of the exchanger.

I would look online (or at dealers if they have them) at all 3 furnaces. The Harman PF-100, slSt. Croix Revolution, and Fahrenheit Endurance (50F). They all have a self cleaning pot. Harman is a bottom feed that pushes the ash out of the pot. St. Croix has the "Clinker Cutter", and Fahrenheit has the "Cyclean" system (pretty slick). All have advantages and disadvantages. The Fahrenheit reads really well, but the Revolution has slightly higher BTU's and doesn't have to run Full Bore during a cleaning cycle (Fahrenheit runs on level 5 for about 30 min during the "Cyclean" process). Harmans... Well, the name speaks for itself, one of the industry leaders.
 
Buzz, are you wanting to heat the basement also or is it just storage?
 
As the owner of a Revolution furnace I highly suggest you talk to a real HVAC technician (not just a stove salesman) about the requirements for heating your space in your climate, and which (if any) of the available furnaces will act as an appropriate supplemental heat source (usually for insurance requirements your present heating system will need to remain available as well). Show him the specs and owner's manuals (all available for download online from the manufacturers) for the various models you are considering. A hundred bucks for detailed consultation can save you thousands in future headaches.
 
slangtruth said:
As the owner of a Revolution furnace I highly suggest you talk to a real HVAC technician (not just a stove salesman) about the requirements for heating your space in your climate, and which (if any) of the available furnaces will act as an appropriate supplemental heat source (usually for insurance requirements your present heating system will need to remain available as well). Show him the specs and owner's manuals (all available for download online from the manufacturers) for the various models you are considering. A hundred bucks for detailed consultation can save you thousands in future headaches.
Click to expand...


Good Thinking, thanks!

buzzweiser
 
DexterDay said:
So its not just the feed rates, its also the efficiency of the exchanger.
Click to expand...

Doesn't everybody pretty much claim the same efficiency? Around 80ish%
 
Assuming you have the lawn availability, I'd install a brand new geothermal system that can cool your house (since I think you mentioned that you already have ductwork) and provide some heat during the colder months. Then as the primary heat source, I'd install a nice Harman P61 or P68 somewhere on your first floor where it can circulate the air throughout your primary living area. Since you can claim a 30% tax credit on the geothermal, you'd pay for it relatively quickly. Give the size of your house, I think a pellet boiler may be overkill. Just a suggestion......
 
Agree with Chain. A regular pellet stove in your primary living area is what I'd go with. 1400 sq ft is very reasonable for a pellet stove to heat. And you might want to think about how easy (or difficult) it would be to get several tons of pellets down in your basement each year to feed a pellet furnace. Would you be carrying them down steps, or do you have a door entrance direct to the outside? If you're young it might not be a big deal - but think about 10 or 15 years down the road and ask yourself if you are willing to do the daily pellet feeding & maintenance routine week after week, year after year? Not trying to discourage you from doing a pellet furnace, just advising that you think long term versus short term.

Geothermal is awesome but expensive, at least in my area. Back when we built our house in 2002, I got a quote and it was going to be in the $20,000 range.

Running a pellet stove in my two story great room has saved me a significant amount of money since we installed our first stove in 2004. Our heat pumps will still run when it gets really cold (like upper 20's or below), but if the temps are in the mid 30's or above, they virtually never run.
 
bcb1 said:
Agree with Chain. A regular pellet stove in your primary living area is what I'd go with. 1400 sq ft is very reasonable for a pellet stove to heat. And you might want to think about how easy (or difficult) it would be to get several tons of pellets down in your basement each year to feed a pellet furnace. Would you be carrying them down steps, or do you have a door entrance direct to the outside? If you're young it might not be a big deal - but think about 10 or 15 years down the road and ask yourself if you are willing to do the daily pellet feeding & maintenance routine week after week, year after year? Not trying to discourage you from doing a pellet furnace, just advising that you think long term versus short term.

Geothermal is awesome but expensive, at least in my area. Back when we built our house in 2002, I got a quote and it was going to be in the $20,000 range.

Running a pellet stove in my two story great room has saved me a significant amount of money since we installed our first stove in 2004. Our heat pumps will still run when it gets really cold (like upper 20's or below), but if the temps are in the mid 30's or above, they virtually never run.
Click to expand...

I was looking at geothermal, and you were right at least $20,000 for a vertical drill. That is when I scrapped that idea and started thinking pellet furnace/heat pump combo. I have a walk out basement, so I would have to pack the bags in, but it would be a short walk. I'm not sure which way I'll end up going, just looking at all my options.

Thanks for the advise.
buzz
 
The other option is to forgo the geothermal and just purchase the newer whole house cooling systems which are installed from room to room and run off of one outdoor cooling system. They're far cheaper than a geo thermal unit and I believe are more efficient than window units or whole house cooling units. I believe Mitsubishi and others make such units. They're highly efficient and the beauty is you don't have to remove them from a window at the end of each summer. They're installed near the ceiling of each room you wish to directly cool.

Also, given you mentioned you have duct work, you could purchase a pellet stove that can also be "ducted" throughout your home to provide the heat. These units are stand alone pellet stoves that allow the owner to duct some of the heat to three or four rooms via existing duct work. In a sense they're like a hybrid of a pellet boiler and pellet stove.

Here's two such brands:

http://www.mcz.it/en/stoves-pellet-ducted/

http://www.archiexpo.com/prod/wanders/contemporary-wood-pellet-stoves-ducted-air-60626-212384.html
 
If you have duct-work I say use it with a pellet furnace to get even heat distribution to all the rooms in your ranch. Why put up with cold rooms and give up the control you get from your duct registers by installing a stove. Pellet furnaces are not that much more expensive than a large stove. You could then use the pellet furnace all the time and use your old system as a back-up. Pellet burners need more TLC than oil, gas, or electric heating systems as you may have noticed from this forum.

Pellet furnaces do burn more pellets than the stoves. Mine burns between 5.5 to 6.5 tons a year. I am heating a 2500 sq ft space that is poorly insulated with a full basement. The basement stays warm from the PF100 cabinet, sheet metal ducts, and the pellet vent pipe (exhaust) run.

I load my pellets into the basement using a homemade slide through a basement window. Very little carrying; off the trailer, onto the slide, and stack in the storage area. If you are interested I'll post pictures of it. I store the pellets on pallets to keep them away from floor moisture. I load a full season's worth of pellets all at one time to be done with it.
 
exoilburner said:
If you have duct-work I say use it with a pellet furnace to get even heat distribution to all the rooms in your ranch. Why put up with cold rooms and give up the control you get from your duct registers by installing a stove. Pellet furnaces are not that much more expensive than a large stove. You could then use the pellet furnace all the time and use your old system as a back-up. Pellet burners need more TLC than oil, gas, or electric heating systems as you may have noticed from this forum.

Pellet furnaces do burn more pellets than the stoves. Mine burns between 5.5 to 6.5 tons a year. I am heating a 2500 sq ft space that is poorly insulated with a full basement. The basement stays warm from the PF100 cabinet, sheet metal ducts, and the pellet vent pipe (exhaust) run.

I load my pellets into the basement using a homemade slide through a basement window. Very little carrying; off the trailer, onto the slide, and stack in the storage area. If you are interested I'll post pictures of it. I store the pellets on pallets to keep them away from floor moisture. I load a full season's worth of pellets all at one time to be done with it.
Click to expand...

I was thinking whole house pellet furnace. My idea was put it in the basement and use the existing ductwork. I could keep the old electric furnace in the loop, no real reason not to, the go with the heat pump.

You guys are giving me alot of really good ideas, please keep em coming!
Buzz
 
you might also look at bulk pellet delivery options in your area.
folks w/ furnaces sometimes have bulk storage and autofeed set ups.

beats carrying all those bags if you have the space.
i think the truck kind of just blows them in trough a tube when delivering.
i've seen bins that go in the basement. but there are also silos for outside.
a silo seems a bit much for my tastes. but i'm sure they are perfect for some people.

i'm sure there are potential cons as well as pros to this solution though.
you may be limited as to what brand pellet you burn with bulk delivery.

i can't think of more without direct experience of this set up.
 
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