Was this install done properly??

momof2nutlings · Jan 19, 2012

Shari said:
+1 to everything everyone else has said about this chimney!

By the way - can you shoot us a picture of where the stove is sitting so we can have a look see of that area?

Morning rush here, will try and get the camera out in a few, but it's nothing special. Stove is sitting on a 2 pieces of cement-board, fused by furnace cement, bounded on the edges by pine strips. Manual simply calls for non combustible surface, and we paid particular attention to the set-backs when making the board.

Thanks everyone for all of your help! So glad I decided to come and ask.

StuckInTheMuck · Jan 19, 2012

My opinion is that you should rip the whole thing out and let your children do the install. They will do a better job than that.. Would be interesting to know what the inspector has to say..

KaptJaq · Jan 19, 2012

Hopefully the inspector will fail it. This gets you off the hook as the bad guy/mom.

Have the inspector write up the reasons it failed and how it should have been done. Use that to get the installer to either do it right or refund your money.

I agree with the install suggestions already made above. Pipe straight up and proper hardware through the roof.

KaptJaq

webby3650 · Jan 19, 2012

Pete1983 said:
I should really add as BeeGreen did the chimney needs a liner at least! If there is no liner and you have a chimney fire it WILL pulverize the brick and set the house on fire at those temps I have seen that happen on two seperate occasions it is not pretty.

Again be safe
Pete

A chimney liner would be best, but not every chimney fire burns down the house. It sounds like the flue is clay lined. I think at this point the connector pipe needs redone, and the flue inspected by a qualified person, if the flue is already busted, then the decision to put in a new class a chimney would be easier.

maple1 · Jan 19, 2012

KaptJaq said:
Hopefully the inspector will fail it. This gets you off the hook as the bad guy/mom.

Have the inspector write up the reasons it failed and how it should have been done. Use that to get the installer to either do it right or refund your money.

I agree with the install suggestions already made above. Pipe straight up and proper hardware through the roof.

KaptJaq

+1. See what the inspector says (& let us know - our interest is piqued). If he fails it, you can blame it on that danged inspector. If he passes it, not sure what to say. Get it in writing & try a fire? How long since that chimney has been used?

albertj03 · Jan 19, 2012

momof2nutlings said:
WoodpileOCD, he told me to open the top T and stick a newspaper in there and light it to start the draft. Another weird thing I forgot to ask about in my original post. Never heard of such a thing. Doesn't mean it's wrong...

I swear I researched this guy, he's licensed, insured, A+ in the BBB. *sigh*

Wow! That sounds like a great way to start a chimney fire to me. With setup the way it is creosote will most likely form right at that T and then your going to light a wad of newspaper right there to set it off. I've got two kids and I wouldn't burn with that setup in my house.

BobUrban · Jan 19, 2012

I commend you for going with a pro and shelling out the clams to do so but, with no disrespect to you, this thing is as scary as I have ever seen. This includes all the barn, outbuilding and backwoods homebrew cabins I have been in. To burn that in your home is down right frightning to me.

I would have the inspector axe this with written reason and get the pro back to run a straight shot. A home can be replaced - life is priceless and that thing looks like a catastrophy waiting to happen. DO NOT let the inspector pass this no matter what - even if you have to pay for it! His fail will be your gain with the contractor as well as you and you childrens lives. JMO and the opinion of seemingly everyone else here.

***side note*** Unless the pro argued that this was not safe and you insisted on this install I would also recommend a BBB report stating this outfit is wacko. Who knows what kind of frankenstove set-ups this contractor has installed if they believe this one was a safe system. Now if they did try to discourage the idea and offered/recomended better than you got what you paid for and he is most likely contractually safe. Although I could not sleep at night knowing I installed this in someones home. Maybe he is expecting to come back knowing the inspection will fail. At least I hope that was the thought behind this????

Bob Urban

Osburning · Jan 19, 2012

I don't really understand this chimney, what was it being used for prior to this wood stove install. I'm assuming that's the roof of the porch and the masonry goes through it. Was a masonry fireplace or brick stack down to the ground removed to open up the usable area?

momof2nutlings · Jan 19, 2012

Well. took picture of the pad, and left the camera on the stove as I ran out the house this morning. I hate mornings. LOL

Husband had a chat with the installer, who will be returning tomorrow to take back all his parts and to bring back my check. I have to say I'm impressed that he was willing to do that without any major fuss on our part. While my husband did want the stove where it is, and thought this pipe to chimney would work, if the installer had told us in the first place that there would be any drafting or safety issues, or that he planned to NOT line or even inspect the chimney (He told me he looked and it was safe - even encouraged me to burn in it before inspection, but never mentioned the cardboard blocking the flue. Wow. ) we never would have done it this way. I've been trapped in one burning building in my lifetime and the lengths I will go to avoid that happening again are insane. I don't mess around with fire - I've seen the consequences!

We're going to go with another pro in the area, who installed our other stoves and is probably more safety conscious than me (if it's possible!). Would have gone with him in the first place but he's so very backed up and takes forever to get out here (although ran right out to our house when we had an issue with our other install - turned out to be OE *sigh* but he was very understanding and helpful).

We're going to go up through the ceiling properly. Will also be knocking down the weird chimney this weekend so the temptation is gone. Last guy who lived here had his wood stove hooked up to the same spot. House is 200 years old, who knows what purpose the chimney served at one time, my understanding is that the back porch was once the main kitchen, back 100+ years ago.

Anyone willing to point me to a good explanation of a through the ceiling/roof chimney so I can be an informed consumer?

Thanks so much again.

Pallet Pete · Jan 19, 2012

webby3650 said:
Pete1983 said:

I should really add as BeeGreen did the chimney needs a liner at least! If there is no liner and you have a chimney fire it WILL pulverize the brick and set the house on fire at those temps I have seen that happen on two seperate occasions it is not pretty.

Again be safe
Pete

Click to expand...

A chimney liner would be best, but not every chimney fire burns down the house. It sounds like the flue is clay lined. I think at this point the connector pipe needs redone, and the flue inspected by a qualified person, if the flue is already busted, then the decision to put in a new class a chimney would be easier.

Clay liners are not made to withstand heat from a wood stove! The reason a chimney liner exists is so you don't burn down the house anyone who says different is playing with fire.

Again again be safe haha
Pete

ScotO · Jan 19, 2012

Whoever this 'professional' was that installed your stove needs his 'nutlings' cut off.......I'm not trying to make you feel bad but that job is absolutely horrible and I would definately get it done correctly before burning in it......WOW........

oldspark · Jan 19, 2012

Pete1983 said:
webby3650 said:

Pete1983 said:

I should really add as BeeGreen did the chimney needs a liner at least! If there is no liner and you have a chimney fire it WILL pulverize the brick and set the house on fire at those temps I have seen that happen on two seperate occasions it is not pretty.

Again be safe
Pete

Click to expand...

A chimney liner would be best, but not every chimney fire burns down the house. It sounds like the flue is clay lined. I think at this point the connector pipe needs redone, and the flue inspected by a qualified person, if the flue is already busted, then the decision to put in a new class a chimney would be easier.

Click to expand...

Clay liners are not made to withstand heat from a wood stove! The reason a chimney liner exists is so you don't burn down the house anyone who says different is playing with fire.

Again again be safe haha
Pete

Please explain that to me, chimneys for woodburners have been made with clay liners for years.

maple1 · Jan 19, 2012

Glad to hear the latest report. I would also bet there used to be a big stone or brick fireplace under that chimney at one time a long time ago, as mentioned above. I'm thinking you'll be glad you got rid of it though, once you do, given its present state - sure looks odd. Lotta weihgt up there.

A new stainless chimney can be a DIY install, if you get your ducks in a row and well researched - if you're up to it. Not sure if you guys can work in some DIY with your installer or not? But might save some time & money.

Good luck.

madison · Jan 19, 2012

Link for self education: http://www.selkirkcorp.com/helpdesk/downloads/chimney.aspx

Grannyknot · Jan 19, 2012

wow....all I can say.
I'd bet that using stainless straight up throught the roof with the proper thimble would have been cheaper than what they charged for that mess.

neumsky · Jan 19, 2012

@ momof2...just outa curiousity...did you hand a copy of this forum to the installer?

fox9988 · Jan 19, 2012

maple1 said:
Glad to hear the latest report. I would also bet there used to be a big stone or brick fireplace under that chimney at one time a long time ago, as mentioned above. I'm thinking you'll be glad you got rid of it though, once you do, given its present state - sure looks odd. Lotta weihgt up there.

A new stainless chimney can be a DIY install, if you get your ducks in a row and well researched - if you're up to it. Not sure if you guys can work in some DIY with your installer or not? But might save some time & money.

Good luck.

+1.From the pics it looks like there is a big hole it the bottom of the "beam" where the chimney used to penetrate it.I framed houses for years,masonry should never bear on wood IMHO.Wood flexes masonry does not.Depending on the height of the chimney it could weigh TONS.I'd be glad to see it gone before it falls and kills someone.Good luck Mom,we husbands need a watchful eye at times :roll:

oldspark · Jan 19, 2012

Bottom line-Dont trust any one.

Wood Duck · Jan 19, 2012

momof2nutlings said:
WoodpileOCD, no fires in it yet, as the inspector has not been by to give it his OK yet.

And yes, climb up and light a fire at the T under the ceiling. Ridiculous, huh? He says this is the best way to start the draft. I figure if I have to live like this, that fire isn't EVER going out.

That sounds pretty ridiculous for the installer to recommend climbing up and burning newspaper each time you want to start a fire, but you wouldn't be the only ones who have trouble starting the draft. Read this forum and you'll see lots of advice on burning newspaper, using a hair dryer, etc. mostly the paper is burnt in the stove, but I am just saying it is not unheard of for a draft to be hard to establish. i think a bigger question is whether it will draft properly even after it is warmed up, or if in fact it ever warms up.

Osburning · Jan 19, 2012

momof2nutlings said:
We're going to go up through the ceiling properly. Will also be knocking down the weird chimney this weekend so the temptation is gone. Last guy who lived here had his wood stove hooked up to the same spot. House is 200 years old, who knows what purpose the chimney served at one time, my understanding is that the back porch was once the main kitchen, back 100+ years ago.

Anyone willing to point me to a good explanation of a through the ceiling/roof chimney so I can be an informed consumer?

Thanks so much again.

I figured someone along the way removed the supporting brick under that chimney. While it may have been grandfathered in as is I think tying a new stove into it would allow the code official to fail the masonry chimney and make you either bring that up to code or have you remove it if he was a hardcase. Better to get rid of it like you said.

Going straight up will be easiest and will give you nice performance vs what could have been lots of headaches. Sounds like its all working out.

begreen · Jan 19, 2012

momof2nutlings said:
We're going to go up through the ceiling properly. Will also be knocking down the weird chimney this weekend so the temptation is gone. Last guy who lived here had his wood stove hooked up to the same spot. House is 200 years old, who knows what purpose the chimney served at one time, my understanding is that the back porch was once the main kitchen, back 100+ years ago.

Anyone willing to point me to a good explanation of a through the ceiling/roof chimney so I can be an informed consumer?

Thanks so much again.

Phew, I was so glad to read your post this morning. You are to be commended for good common sense and sticking to safety.

I don't think anything in that room other than the shell is original. I will bet at one point it had a proper ceiling and rafters holding it together. Good to hear that the old chimney stub is being pulled. That will avoid any future temptations for this kind of monkey business. I'm also glad to hear that the 'installer' will remove his attempts and refund you.

Here's a diagram of what your proper chimney will look like. In addition to the Selkirk site, DuraVent has good instructions. Your system will look like the one shown in figure 19:
http://www.duravent.com/docs/product/L150_Apr2011.pdf

Note that this stove is going to want sufficient draft or it may be somewhat balky and run poorly. Try for a minimum of 14', 16' would be better. That's will require enough pipe outside (the outside pipe is called class A pipe) that it will need a roof brace at 5 ft. No big deal, but don't try for too short a chimney or you will be unsatisfied. I would use double-wall pipe inside to help maintain the best draft on the flue system.

And by all means don't be shy about asking more questions. Hubby is welcome too. We want you and your family to be warm and safe.

momof2nutlings · Jan 19, 2012

oldspark So hard to think that way, but sadly I need to learn some positive skepticism...

neumsky I thought of doing just that if he was going to argue about refunding us. Not sure what good it would do at this point except to irritate him.

madison Thank you for that link. So much information there to look through !!!

Guess what I'll be doing tonight after grad school? LOL

fox9988 Us wives need watchful eyes at times too. It's a two-way street. :lol:

BeGreen Thank you so very much!

Everyone here has been wonderful. We'll be here!

firefighterjake · Jan 19, 2012

Hogwildz said:
I hate to say it, but I don't see that ever passing inspection. Not trying to burst your bubble. If that passes, the inspector knows less then the installer. Be careful with that please.

+1 . . . it's been a while since I've seen such a mess . . . a scary, unsafe looking mess . . . of an installation. If it passes I would be very, very worried about whatever else the inspector in town has approved.

This whole thing is so wrong . . . the chimney, the pipe, the masonry chimney on wooden beams and the whole idea of having to climb up to light a ball of newspaper on fire in a T to establish a draft. So very, very, very wrong.

firefighterjake · Jan 19, 2012

After finally reading through the whole thread I for one am very happy you have decided to ax this catastrophe and go with a straight shot up through the roof . . . another alternative would have been to go out through the nearby wall if possible (with an approved wall pass through device -- not a few sheets of tin foil) and go up from the outside with Class A pipe.

In any case, I am really glad . . . do the job right and you will sleep well at night. The pictures you posted . . . I would not have slept well.

Also, FYI . . . I find myself not trusting the Better Business Bureau and their ratings much these days. One company I have had professional dealings with in the past is very highly rated . . . even though they sell over-priced products and use scare tactics to sell their stuff.

Pallet Pete · Jan 19, 2012

oldspark said:
Pete1983 said:

webby3650 said:

Pete1983 said:

I should really add as BeeGreen did the chimney needs a liner at least! If there is no liner and you have a chimney fire it WILL pulverize the brick and set the house on fire at those temps I have seen that happen on two seperate occasions it is not pretty.

Again be safe
Pete

Click to expand...

A chimney liner would be best, but not every chimney fire burns down the house. It sounds like the flue is clay lined. I think at this point the connector pipe needs redone, and the flue inspected by a qualified person, if the flue is already busted, then the decision to put in a new class a chimney would be easier.

Click to expand...

Clay liners are not made to withstand heat from a wood stove! The reason a chimney liner exists is so you don't burn down the house anyone who says different is playing with fire.

Again again be safe haha
Pete

Click to expand...

Please explain that to me, chimneys for woodburners have been made with clay liners for years.

High efficency stoves are made to run much hotter on the flue than older box stoves and they do. For example my Harman runs at 800 normally which is common with epa stoves however my old smoke dragon would stop at 550 usually unless I over fired. 1) The liner protects the house from heat transfer to combustibles. In the NBS tests, unlined chimneys allowed heat to move through the chimney so rapidly that the adjacent woodwork caught fire in only 3 1/2 hours. This is a reason that liners are made of stainless steel it can handle extreme heat and not crack or melt under the heat which is also why most cities require a liner through a clay chimney.

Pete

Was this install done properly??

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