New Home Construction

"Some people have mentioned using natural gas boiler? If I did this would it be easy to transfer to a wood gasser system if gas prices went out of sight? "
Yes It wouldn't be to bad to switch as long as you had a flu or a way to put a chiminey in. You could also have
both hooked together so when you want you can burn wood you can, or if the wood goes out the gas will kick in. The boilers
would usually be beside each other to simplify plumbing and controls.

I am surprised that passive solar is only mentioned once in this thread. When I built my house in 1990, without spending ANY extra money I made it more comfortable winter and summer both by simply pointing it due south so that the largest area of the windows point that direction. In the winter on a sunny day it can be 10 degrees outside and 73 degrees inside from the sun alone coming in through the front windows. In the summer with the generous overhang from the roof and the gutters NO sun comes in the south windows.

Two more things I should mention, my house is a basic raised ranch with windows on all sides, it's just that the majority of the area is on the south side. The other thing is that it is SO pleasant in my living room on a sunny winter day, not just from the heat the sun provides but also from the daylight.

joewyo34 said:

woodsmaster said:

"Some people have mentioned using natural gas boiler? If I did this would it be easy to transfer to a wood gasser system if gas prices went out of sight? "
Yes It wouldn't be to bad to switch as long as you had a flu or a way to put a chiminey in. You could also have
both hooked together so when you want you can burn wood you can, or if the wood goes out the gas will kick in. The boilers
would usually be beside each other to simplify plumbing and controls.

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Yes, this sounds very interesting. What make/model would be best suited for a combination gasser and natural gas setup. And for this situation, would in floor heat be best?

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I don't Know a lot about the gas boilers. Here is the little I Know. The condinsing models are more efficient and can vent threw a pvc pipe. I believe you want low temp emitters with this to maximize efficiency. I'd go with infloor heat (Myfirst choice) with the addition of towelwarmers in the bathrooms. As far as wood gassers there are many good brands. The garn,Frolling and effecta lambada are said to be some of the best and easiest to run but also more expensive. I'm happy with my biomass, but there was definitly a learning curve at first. I have mine in a shed, but if I could do it again I'd build a room on the house for it with an entry door from outside and a entry door to the inside of house. This way If you were cleanig it or bringing wood in the mess wouldn't be
coming threw the house. Then when its running the door to the house could be open to gain any heat lost in transmision. Make the room big enough to hold some wood and you can fire the boiler without going outside and still keep the mess out of the house.

Here are some schematics if you want to hook up two boilers.

http://www.woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/WoodBoilerPlumbingSchematic0111Web.pdf

You can always start with a natural gas/oil boiler and add a wood boiler later. That is what most of us have done. Easier if you plan ahead and have the required flue and some extra tees and ball valve strategically located to when you install the first boiler.

I would look into having your system designed with low temp emitters (radiant floor or flat panel radiators etc.) If you want to have storage low temps allow you to make better use of the storage and go longer between firings.

Also, have you looked over the primary secondary sticky and simplest pressurized sticky?

joewyo34 said:

mikefrommaine said:

Here are some schematics if you want to hook up two boilers.

http://www.woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/WoodBoilerPlumbingSchematic0111Web.pdf

You can always start with a natural gas/oil boiler and add a wood boiler later. That is what most of us have done. Easier if you plan ahead and have the required flue and some extra tees and ball valve strategically located to when you install the first boiler.

I would look into having your system designed with low temp emitters (radiant floor or flat panel radiators etc.) If you want to have storage low temps allow you to make better use of the storage and go longer between firings.

Also, have you looked over the primary secondary sticky and simplest pressurized sticky?

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I am not sure what you mean by primary sticky or pressurized sticky? Would like to use this gas boiler though

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https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/13877/

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/19086/

woodsmaster said:

If I was building new I'd super insulate and heat with a natural gas condensing boiler with heat in the floor. the money these
gassifiers cost would be better spent in IFC's or another well insulated method. Your heat bill would be very cheap and no work or mess that comes with the wood.

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^like

That philosophy can change in a hurry though if the fossil fuel options are limited to LP gas or fuel oil.

One other thing that may come into play shortly is off peak electricity. The boys at Dectra/Garn have a prototype heat storage unit under field testing right now that uses off peak electric to heat water and then dump the btu's into the home as needed during the day. If a person is in an area with hydro electric dams making the juice there is a pretty good chance that off peak rates are available and something like that could make a lot of sense. The storage unit sits in the back yard and will be piped into the home just like an OWB would be installed.

woodsmaster said:

If I was building new I'd super insulate and heat with a natural gas condensing boiler with heat in the floor. the money these
gassifiers cost would be better spent in IFC's or another well insulated method. Your heat bill would be very cheap and no work or mess that comes with the wood.

Click to expand...

I have a very well insulated house and it costs me $600.00 for a month and a half to heat a 2800 square foot home with modcon boiler. with DHW . I just tore it out the other day. They might be efiecient but at $4.00 a gal. :ahhh: And like heaterman says there will be a huge spike in electricity costs as soon as everyone is hooked up to a smart meter.

I cant see the future but it looks as if natural gas will be cheap here for years to come. propane and elec. are a different story.

Use structural urethane foam insulation in all your walls and ceilings. I didn't and wish I did. My brother did that in a 6500 sq ft house and he heats with a small wood stove and NG for under $100/month in Southern New England.

I'm with JT, if you're building new and can get natural gas, skip the wood and go all gas and building efficiency. The only logical alternative would be a ground loop heat pump, since you want AC and have the acreage, after digging that gas trench the ground loop will look easy.

Passive solar is such a good deal that I'd be moving the house or getting out the chainsaw.

This is a system that you should consider
http://www.radiantec.com/systems-sources/open-system.php
Professionals hate it, either because it really is completely unsafe, or because it is so much cheaper and better than the systems they install that, well they hate it.

Also, if considering radiant with concrete or tile floors and an efficient envelope; the floor will NOT feel warm, it will be just above the air temperature which will make the room feel comfortable. To keep the floor warmer than the room, you have to be losing that heat through a leaky envelope. Radiant is still the best way to go, just don't believe that it's going to help you get lucky on the living room floor.

I'm all in favor of excellent insulation, windows, and control of infiltration, along with moisture and air quality control. Sometimes it seems though what might be the most important thing to consider regarding energy usage is the size of the home. A smaller home not only is less expensive to build, but every day provides savings for heating and cooling simply because of size.

The weather station 12 miles from us reported heating degree days Feb 2011 - Jan 2012 of 10413. Degree days that high exist only along the extreme north central and north eastern areas of the US.

My wife and I have a 1500 sq ft home with a full, mostly finished below-grade basement, 3000 sq ft total. The house was built in 1956 and due to many projects I have mostly rebuilt it with 6" walls, R-19 fiberglass, new windows, original solid wood doors, about R-40 in ceiling/attic. We heat the main 1500 sq ft level only with the small wood stove in the picture. The stove was purchased in 1990, the brochure rates it at 55,000 btuh maximum output, and the sticker on the stove shows average output range 13,239-22,532 btuh. The stove has no difficulty keeping the house warm, even at common winter lows down to -35F, and even during one winter period several years ago when temperatures dropped to the low -50'sF.

We keep the house typically at 70F in the main living areas, cooler in the bedrooms, and we keep the basement at 45-50F with electric heat, no other heating other than normal living for two of us. Our total electric heating bill is less than $200/year, and that includes the backup electric heat for the entire house if we take off for a couple of weeks during the winter.

We burn 4-5 cords of aspen each year, which amounts to about 6-8 btu/sq ft for 1500 sq ft average based on 240 days (8 months) of heating. The firewood comes from our own trees.

I have nothing against larger homes or different life styles. I am amazed though at the surprise or shock some people express at the amount of their heating bills. As my father-in-law commonly said, "When you play you pay." For every action there is a reaction, and one reaction from large homes is higher energy costs.

And again.....building efficiency is the key. Every $ spent in that direction is worth it's weight in gold not only in reduced energy cost but also in the size of equipment you'll need to heat/cool the place.

My brother built 4,800 sq ft house 2 winters ago with higher than average glass facing the south to pick up solar gain from the low winter sun and average to a little less on the north. He used standard 2x6 wood frame construction and had the insulating contractor spray 1" of closed cell foam in the walls, then fill with cellulose. The attic has about 20" of blown in on top to the single story attic. They used scissor type trusses over the cathedral ceiling to allow for the full 20" up there rather than 2x12" ceiling rafters.
The full basement in finished and insulated the same way. (people make a mistake when they don't treat the basement the same as the rest of the house)
We put in a zoned forced air system using Trane's modulating furnace along with a 2 stage A/C-heat pump. The heat pump section of the system will support 70* indoor all the way down to about 38* outdoor temp so the LP gas furnace doesn't even come on until that temp is reached. The system then shuts down the heat pump and switches to gas automatically. We also installed a Trane heat recovery ventilator that has adjustable run time as well manual on for bathroom venting or other uses. It did a beautiful job of drying the house out after construction was complete. The water heater is a standard power vented LP gas model.

I suggested a good quality wood burning fireplace insert for the basement fireplace because of the open stairway right in the center of the house. Absolutely perfect for convective heat rise from the basement to the open plan main floor. He burned about 7 face cords in it last winter. I told him that it would not be worth the investment to go with a wood boiler of any kind. His payback would probably be beyond the normal life of a typical OWB and the higher price of a gasser would be in the neighborhood of 20 years. Neither he nor I will likely be around at that point.
So.....how did he do? His total LP fill for the calendar year was 600 gallons or about $1,200, for the year. I would guess half of that was for hot water heating. Not to shabby in my book.

Jebatty you are right. I hate to say it but we build houses way too big. My family of 4 has plenty at 2200 Sq. ft. ranch. We have 9' ceilings. We put 4-5" of closed cell foam in the walls with all brick. We sparayed the floor joists in the basement and between the energy heel trusses with 3" of foam 4' up the sheathing of the roof. We put in at least R 60 in the attic. A fair amount of windows facing south. We used Anderson windows and put storms on them to boot. I also put 2" foam on outside of block under ground and 1" foam in the basement inside. This house is so efficient if I did it all over I would not bother burning wood. I have 9500 bucks in this stove and always looking for 3-4 cords a year. I am quite sure by the time the boiler is payed for it will be junk. Not worth it. Honestly we had a Quadrafire 7100 in the same house on the same lot. One night something caught on fire and think it was the fan wiring. While rebuilding the wife was not crazy about burning wood inside. We like our EKO 25 compared to the Quadrafire cause of even heat One thing I have to say is we could heat our house with 1,000 bucks a year I think. Reminder 1,000 for a gas bill is 1,200 bucks gross pay. Insulate the living crap out of that house and a pellet stove may be plenty for a 2200 sq ft. house. Right now @ 8 degrees and 10 mph wind the furnace runs about 10 minutes per hour if that.