Oak Leaf Identification
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BobUrban
Minister of Fire
Not sure the exact sub-species but definitely Red Oak. Red oak has pointed ends on the leaves and whites have rounded lobes. Some are more deceiving than others but if there are points on the lobe tips it is a red oak species. Taugh to me as a child long ago(and probably not totally PC anymore) Red has points like Indian arrows and whites are rounded like bullets?
There are many sub-species of both
There are many sub-species of both
NH_Wood
Minister of Fire
Zap, looks like red oak. If not, perhaps scarlet oak - but need a close look at live leaves to tell (at least for me) - I think it's safe to assume you have red oak. Cheers!
stejus
Minister of Fire
Yup, they carpet my lawn from Nov-Dec. Then again in the spring when the remainder fall off the tree. Red Oak for sure.
Thanks for the replies, looks like the Northern Red Oak grows the best in this area so that is what we will plant.
zap
zap
Wood Duck
Minister of Fire
The two smaller leaves, and in particular the one on the left, look sort of thick and shiny suggesting Black Oak. The big leaf on the right looks very typical of Northern Red Oak to me. I'd try to collect acorns from as nearby as possible and from forest similar to yours (that is, if you are on a ridge try for trees from the same ridge or at least from a ridge, not from a river valley).
What ever happened with that one tree you posted a picture of that several of us thought was an oak? Have you had a chance to re-visit the tree?
What ever happened with that one tree you posted a picture of that several of us thought was an oak? Have you had a chance to re-visit the tree?
Wood Duck said:
It was Bigtooth Aspen. In all my travels through our woods I have yet to find one Oak.
zap
Hogwildz
Minister of Fire
Hogwildz said:
Sorry, no. Pin Oak leaves are in general "pointier" with "skinnier" lobes.
Some of the difference between leaves can result from where on the tree it grew. Leaves from on high are "lacier" than leaves down below- lowers are "blockier" with relatively more surface area. The lower ones are protected from over-exposure, by the leaves above.
Woody Stover
Minister of Fire
That makes sense. I saw a set of leaves almost identical to what Zap's got there, last week working on a Cherry/Ash/BL score. They were kind of half way between the classic Red and classic Black shapes.CTYank said:
Yep, yep.Wood Duck said:
firefighterjake
Minister of Fire
BobUrban said:
It may not be PC, but I for one appreciate you posting this memory trick. Since you posted this a few months back it has stuck with me and helped me remember which is red and which is white oak since I was always forgetting.
Brewmonster
Burning Hunk
As usual, WoodDuck has beat me to it, namely by pointing out that Black Oak is a possibility. Oak leaves are notoriously variable, even on the same tree. The more characteristics you have to observe, the better your chances of positive ID. Any acorns? Red Oak acorns are large and long and wear their caps like berets perched on top. Black oak acorns are smaller, rounder and clasped in the cap. Also, Black Oak has that yellow inner bark. As firewood, I think they're about equal.
Some of the triple points make it look like northern red oak to me.
I'd guess the beech, birch and maple and whatever you do have just happened to thrive under the local weather conditions and soil conditions better than any oaks were able to.
I've bought and planted pin oak trees here and they look a lot like the scarlett oak with even "lacier" leaves.
We have white oaks here, but I haven't had much luck, both transplanting them and getting seedlings in pots beyond 3 years.
I'd guess the beech, birch and maple and whatever you do have just happened to thrive under the local weather conditions and soil conditions better than any oaks were able to.
I've bought and planted pin oak trees here and they look a lot like the scarlett oak with even "lacier" leaves.
We have white oaks here, but I haven't had much luck, both transplanting them and getting seedlings in pots beyond 3 years.
clemsonfor
Minister of Fire
I would say its a Quercus rubra or N. Red oak. Its not Scarlet in my opinion as the sinuses
are not deep enough or chaped enough like a "C". Its not S. Red oak as you may be out of
its range? but also it has more of a rounded base on the leaf. Its not Black oak in my opinion
because the leaf is not "fat " enough. All of the trees i listed are in the Red oak family which
can be identifed by thier bristle tips in the leaves as well as cell structure and lack of tyloses
in the wood fibers.
Also remember the bristle tips may not be visible on all of the red oaks.
The only white oak species i think are the Q. alba, Q. stellata, and what ever the latin name
is for sand post oak, i also Swamp chestnut and chestnut oak, as well as maybe Burr oak i
cant remember. This is all that will grow around here atleast.
Checked Silvics of North America site, i dont beleive Pin oak grows in that range, naturally. And i know S. red oak dosent.
are not deep enough or chaped enough like a "C". Its not S. Red oak as you may be out of
its range? but also it has more of a rounded base on the leaf. Its not Black oak in my opinion
because the leaf is not "fat " enough. All of the trees i listed are in the Red oak family which
can be identifed by thier bristle tips in the leaves as well as cell structure and lack of tyloses
in the wood fibers.
Also remember the bristle tips may not be visible on all of the red oaks.
The only white oak species i think are the Q. alba, Q. stellata, and what ever the latin name
is for sand post oak, i also Swamp chestnut and chestnut oak, as well as maybe Burr oak i
cant remember. This is all that will grow around here atleast.
Checked Silvics of North America site, i dont beleive Pin oak grows in that range, naturally. And i know S. red oak dosent.
Brewmonster
Burning Hunk
Say, Zap, were you thinking to transplant some seedlings? If so, you might want to stick with small stuff, or even get some acorns and sprout them. Red Oak tends to grow a heavy taproot with very little fine, feeder root development near the trunk, making them a real PITA to dig, even in the nursery. Pin Oak is much better behaved in this regard. One thing you might do is root prune, cutting the taproot maybe a foot below grade but leaving the tree in place for another year, then dig it next spring. In the meantime, the tree will have grown a lot more fibrous roots near the trunk, improving the odds for survival.
muncybob
Minister of Fire
Brewmonster
Burning Hunk
muncybob said:
Not sure if this answers the deeper question of WHY, but here's something from Illinois Extension Service:
Certain plant genera and plant families are physiologically predisposed to maintaining a portion of their post nutrient translocated and desiccated foliage throughout the dormant season (i.e., marcescence). Many oak species (genus: Quercus), especially juvenile oak trees, will maintain a certain percentage of their fall leaves into the start of the next growing season. American beech (genus: Fagus) falls into the category too as oak and beech are in the same plant family (Fagaceae). Other species, such as eastern hophornbeam (i.e., ironwood) and American hornbeam (i.e., blue-beech or musclewood) also maintain a portion of their foliage throughout the dormant season. Granted not all the aforementioned species exhibit this phenomenon with 100% regularity, though it is certainly a very common occurrence—especially in juvenile trees. Ultimately, in a physiological context, the abscission layer (separation zone at the base of the petiole, or leaf stalk) fails to abscise or separate upon autumn leaf senescence. This in turn causes complete leaf senescence to be delayed until spring. Again, certain genera or plant families are physiologically predisposed to this phenomenon, otherwise known as marcescence (i.e., retention of dormant, desiccated plant organs). Environmental conditions and genetics presumably play a role in marcescence, although I’m uncertain as to what extent.
Brewmonster said:
Not sure which way we will go but I'll print this off for the file I'm making for the planting of the N. Red Oak. We have the area picked out in the woods which needs some clearing of some smaller downed trees before we go ahead with this.
Zap
Backwoods Savage
Minister of Fire
Hogwildz
Minister of Fire
golfandwoodnut
Minister of Fire
Brewmonster said:
Wow, you must be a real horticulturist, using some words I never even heard before. You know your stuff, I have a lot of Beech trees and do notice leaves hanging around like it is still fall in the winter. Some of the White Oaks also seem to hold on to the leaves longer than most, but they are gone by winter. Zap, the bark of Red Oak is quite a bit different than White, the White look more like they have scales and a true Red Oak is pretty smooth and sort of silvery. Black Oaks are related to Red Oaks but have a little more furrow and much darker. There are many varieties that is for sure. I bought a Pin Oak at my old place and it was nice, but I do not believe they are native here. My favorite is what I call a true Red Oak.
golfandwoodnut
Minister of Fire
Zap, One thing I do find a little surprising is that I have been looking for property in southern NY and they have lots of Oaks. Is the weather that much different in the Northern part of NY?
GolfandWoodNut said:
Yes, usually colder with more snow, I'm sure the soil is different too. I think for planting purposes we are in zone 4.
zap
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