non-pressurized vs. pressurized

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.

DaBackBurner

Member
May 11, 2010
84
UP Michigan
A different post has me considering something for spring. I have two buildings that are heated by the Garn using its non-pressurized storage (no additional exchangers). One building, the workshop in which the Garn is housed, is using radiant slab while one of the buildings is a home with a water-air exchanger in the plenum. My home has hydronic heat, with a flat-plate heat exchanger because it is a pressurized system so I needed an interface hence the FP. Could I run my house as a non-pressurized system (essentially removing the flat-plate) and if so what things should I consider before doing this, or should I abandon doing this? I understand that my existing boiler could not be used as a backup. It hasn't run since I hooked up the Garn anyway. I would want to make provisions to fairly easily re-hook up the existing fossil boiler (return the home to a pressurized system) if the need should arise. I also understand that purging/cleaning the existing water in the pressurized system would need to be done prior to this as well. What else?
Any opinions-help or whatever is always appreciated. Thank you.
 
Notice the comment I just posted in the thread "Efficiency misconceptions." My first take is that if the elevation of the Garn by gravity will push water to the top of your house heating system, and if you have Net Positive Suction Head with the circulator, you could use the Garn in this fashion. You will need to be able to isolate the Garn from the heating system to use the other boiler, and isolate the other boiler which requires pressure from the heating system to use the Garn. It is possible that a high head circulator will be able to lift the heated water somewhat higher than the gravity level to provide heat at levels above the Garn, but maintaining NPSH, especially at higher temperatures, may be an increasing problem.

My checklist: if switching from LP to OWB, then close supply and return valves to the LP and close valve to the expansion tank; open supply and return valves to OWB. If switching from OWB to LP, close supply and return valves to the OWB; open supply and return valves to LP and open valve to the expansion tank.
 
As Jim said above, it's just a matter of isolating the LP boiler and letting the rest of the system run "open. The only other option would be to go "old school" and pipe up an open expansion tank in your attic and leave the LP boiler in the loop. Worked a hundred years ago and physics haven't changed since then that I know of. :)
 
"There's no school like the old school." It does sound interesting to go with a purely un-pressurized system. My main objective is to increase my storage time, and the only way I can see to do that is to be able to use the lowest water temperature needed for my heat emitters that can satisfy my BTU loss with the highest ΔT returning to storage after it is utilized up within the desired heated area. Also to minimize my underground heat loss (there has to be some) as much as I can. None of which I am currently doing. The advantage I see by not using the flat plate heat exchanger is two fold. It reduces my transfer loss of the HX itself and it seems the other advantage is it could allow the ability to send return water back to storage that has a higher ΔT than the HX is designed to do. Eliots buffer tank idea slammed the brakes on my original idea (which is good it helps me learn) which was to mix from the Garn either with setpoint or full ODR prior to going underground. This seems to fit my parameters because I have heat emitters that can utilize lower water temperatures than is currently being sent underground from the Garn especially when I bring storage up beyond my needed temperature. On one hand I like the additional volume of the buffer tank but I don't know which method would be better. With the buffer tank I would have to run higher temperatures through the underground to heat the buffer tank, but for shorter amounts of time. It has me at a crossroads. The one advantage that mixing prior to going underground with ODR gives me is that I would'nt worry about the underground freezing because of the nearly continous circulation, albeit at lower water temperatures than I currently have. With the buffer tank I think I would want some sort of timer for the underground (no-glycol) which just represents heat loss, but needed for peace of mind. I gotta stop obsessing about this or I may be sleeping on the couch. :eek:hh:
 
heaterman said:
As Jim said above, it's just a matter of isolating the LP boiler and letting the rest of the system run "open. The only other option would be to go "old school" and pipe up an open expansion tank in your attic and leave the LP boiler in the loop. Worked a hundred years ago and physics haven't changed since then that I know of. :)

Works now! I grew up with such systems, my father and brother have them. Still the norm in the UK.

I do not know if it is for newly installed systems mind you.
 
Boilers design for closed loop last longer, closed loop systems have much less corrosion and component failure, thus the 25-30 year warranty. This is the biggest difference. If you were to make a CI open loop, we usually see failure around 10 yrs and if not using special pumps they usually go much more often and sometimes barely circulate zones. Circulators are just that, they are not pumps, they work by creating pressure differentials not by pumping water like a sump pump. Temp probes will have large swings in turn on turn off temps. Safety devices like flow switches and thermisters don't last long.
 
ALASKAPF185 said:
Boilers design for closed loop last longer, closed loop systems have much less corrosion and component failure, thus the 25-30 year warranty. This is the biggest difference. If you were to make a CI open loop, we usually see failure around 10 yrs and if not using special pumps they usually go much more often and sometimes barely circulate zones. Circulators are just that, they are not pumps, they work by creating pressure differentials not by pumping water like a sump pump. Temp probes will have large swings in turn on turn off temps. Safety devices like flow switches and thermisters don't last long.

I would tend to agree with you, in a general sense, if the water chemistry was never analyzed. With that being said however, proper water chemistry in any boiler system, whether closed or open, should be analyzed on some sort of maintenance schedule to prolong the life of the boiler, the interconnecting distribution piping, and associated various components. With proper water chemistry maintenance, longevity between the two types of systems can be equalized.
 
DaBackBurner said:
ALASKAPF185 said:
Boilers design for closed loop last longer, closed loop systems have much less corrosion and component failure, thus the 25-30 year warranty. This is the biggest difference. If you were to make a CI open loop, we usually see failure around 10 yrs and if not using special pumps they usually go much more often and sometimes barely circulate zones. Circulators are just that, they are not pumps, they work by creating pressure differentials not by pumping water like a sump pump. Temp probes will have large swings in turn on turn off temps. Safety devices like flow switches and thermisters don't last long.

I would tend to agree with you, in a general sense, if the water chemistry was never analyzed. With that being said however, proper water chemistry in any boiler system, whether closed or open, should be analyzed on some sort of maintenance schedule to prolong the life of the boiler, the interconnecting distribution piping, and associated various components. With proper water chemistry maintenance, longevity between the two types of systems can be equalized.

Perhaps PF185 is missing the point, it's hard to tell just what he might be talking about. I believe what are being described are systems with elevated expansion cisterns with large diameter blow-off piping to the cistern. These do a good job of isolating the system from atmospheric oxygen and perform well for many decades, just ask Hanson. Isolation can be improved with a layer of mineral oil, or use of an atmospheric pressure bladder.
 
Yes, perhaps he is. Good morning Eliot.
 
Even with maintenance you can gain more than if you didn't but on average an open loop will never last as long as a closed loop in normal operating conditions. This doesn't mean an open loop hasn't last long. It just is the laws of physics, more corrosion occurs in an open loop. If open systems were just as good more would be running them, they are cheaper and more simple, component wise. Every additive you add to the system reduces the heat transfer capabilities. It can be as high as 10% it also reduces the flow rate of circulators.
 
EWD - can you explain the ins and outs of the mineral oil. ya know the pluses and minuses
 
bigburner said:
explain the ins and outs of the mineral oil. ya know the pluses and minuses

Just to be sure, it's an elevated "open expansion tank", a.k.a. "expansion cistern", a.k.a. "European open" type of tank that's being referred to:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/44206/

They've been discussed a lot, but I only know of one member Hansson that has much experience with them. He says that although he considers it unnecessary, if you're worried about oxygen entering a system with an elevated open expansion tank you can use a layer of 'parafin oil' [sic] to make an oxygen barrier:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/40555/#438833

I would think the downside would be that if you failed to properly isolate the expansion tank when draining some part of the system, then the oil could drain down into the system proper and make a mess, but it's pretty innocuous stuff so I don't know what the real harm would be. I seen old tractors that used kerosene instead of antifreeze that didn't seem to be harmed by it. Nevertheless it would seem wise to keep it away from seals, heat exchangers, nylon impellers, micro-bubble screens, and whatnot.

Couldn't pull it off in my house, the right spot in the attic was just too far out of the way from where the boiler was going, and you need a fat enough pipe to blow steam and water all the way up to the tank in the event that things get away from you.

--ewd
 
EWD- Sorry for not being more clear, I get the hyd stuff. I was interested in the mineral oil, sealing off the tank top. My system is under pressure, but I have HX inserted in a large open tank, I teat the water. Having a seal floating on top caught my eye. Thanks
 
Status
Not open for further replies.