no more pellet stove and fuel oil as primary heat, hello Geothermal

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johnny1720

Burning Hunk
Mar 6, 2007
240
The Great North East
After living here for 5 years the wife and I have decided to replace the terrible oil burner with a geothermal heat pump. I will keep the pellet insert as a backup and it is currently being used during the install. The other pellet stove was moved to the man cave last year. It will be great to not have to shop around for pellets/fuel oil and just pay the monthly electric bill.


The initial up front cost is high but the tax rebate and savings on yearly operating expenses will more than pay for this. I will also be getting central air with this system.


Johnny
 
congats, I wish I would of looked into geothermal more when I built in 06
 
Geotheremal is still on my list for a house we'll be building this summer. The kicker is the natural gas is avail at the new site. That make ROI calculations interesting.
 
My father in law put geo thermal in a new house he constructed in 07.

They set the ROI at 6-7 years. I don't think that was accurate.

The system was expensive as all get out and it has one hell of a massive ground loop.$$$

His electric bill is always double of mine and sometimes triple.

Square footage is approx. the same, and his house is occupied by two and I have 4.

This is the only comparison I have, but knowing what I know now I'd have a helluva spending that coin.
 
smoke show said:
My father in law put geo thermal in a new house he constructed in 07.

They set the ROI at 6-7 years. I don't think that was accurate.

The system was expensive as all get out and it has one hell of a massive ground loop.$$$

His electric bill is always double of mine and sometimes triple.

Square footage is approx. the same, and his house is occupied by two and I have 4.

This is the only comparison I have, but knowing what I know now I'd have a helluva spending that coin.
Click to expand...

That's a great real world case in point to use for reference. I always figured this was the ultimate way to go, but scared to death of the initial price.

I wonder if the summer time cooling from it is cheaper and would offset the heating? I'm sure everyone sees varying results.
 
johnny1720 said:
After living here for 5 years the wife and I have decided to replace the terrible oil burner with a geothermal heat pump. I will keep the pellet insert as a backup and it is currently being used during the install. The other pellet stove was moved to the man cave last year. It will be great to not have to shop around for pellets/fuel oil and just pay the monthly electric bill.


The initial up front cost is high but the tax rebate and savings on yearly operating expenses will more than pay for this. I will also be getting central air with this system.


Johnny
Click to expand...

Intriguing stuff... how hot can geothermal heat pumps get though? What temperature do you keep your house?
 
Whatever you do make sure you have someone locally that is qualfied to work on the system. I have heard several reports from rural areas that when the systems break down, the homeowner has to wait for a qualified individual to drive up from the nearest big city (possibly 2 or 3 hours one way) to service the equipment. The owner gets to pay for the trip up and back plus extra wait time. For some reason, these expenses arent usually included in rosy payback for geothermal heat pump systems.

If installed correctly, they are great but considerably more complex than alternative sources of heating. They will need more specialized maintenance as there are lot more moving parts so plan on having the system maintained yearly. A local building inspector in most areas is not going to necessarily catch any issues with the installation so you are at the mercy of the designer/installer and his reputation. This is new field so there are a lot of new installers without long term track records.
 
smoke show said:
My father in law put geo thermal in a new house he constructed in 07.

They set the ROI at 6-7 years. I don't think that was accurate.

The system was expensive as all get out and it has one hell of a massive ground loop.$$$

His electric bill is always double of mine and sometimes triple.

Square footage is approx. the same, and his house is occupied by two and I have 4.

This is the only comparison I have, but knowing what I know now I'd have a helluva spending that coin.
Click to expand...

That just doesn't sound right. Sorry. There must be something wrong with either the installation or we are not comparing apples to apples. Perhaps his house is 75 while yours is 68? The ground loop is not sufficient or not deep enough? The hot air ducting is in a crawl space and not sealed and insulated properly versus yours (big efficiency loss)? His house is multi-level and yours is a ranch? If my bill went UP after installation, I'd have that HVAC contractor out there by the back of his neck. Something is definitely not right!

Many contractors did, and some still do, use geothermal as an excuse to overcharge for installation and make a great profit. In reality, except for deep well drilling types of ground loops, the process has been getting better all the time. If you have the acreage, a day with a back hoe will give you your ground loops. They even have a drilling rig that will sit in one spot and drill holes radially out, down, and back up to the surface where the pipes can be looped around.
 
tjnamtiw said:
If my bill went UP after installation, I'd have that HVAC contractor out there by the back of his neck.
Click to expand...

Never said his bill went up.

Brand new construction, so nothing to compare to.

He had the installer and the electric company out. No problems found.

Ground loop depth is 8' plus, if my memory serves me correctly.
 
I believe there are to many variables to compare house to house
I talk to family and their electric bill is the same as mine and my house is ALL electric
and they heat with gas so that is in addition to electric
oh and my house is 4600 square feet and the garage is heated
and my 28 X 56 building is half living space (in law suite) and the
other half (shop) is heated
my biggest electric bill this year 231.00
yes pellets heat the main house but the electric heats the rest
so how much would I save?????
I do not think it would ever pay itself back
 
ironpony said:
I believe there are to many variables to compare house to house
Click to expand...

There are, but there's one test you could do to check a large part of the design. Most geothermal heat pumps have a resistance heating element in addition to the compressor - if the pump can't produce enough heat it will switch on the all-electric element to back it up. The test is to turn off the system's resistance element (find out in the manual how to disable it) and see if the pump keeps the house warm. If not, the loop is undersized (could be length, soil type [clay is good, sand is bad], etc.).

If I understand correctly, many people who complain about the pump running expensively simply don't realize the resistance heater is kicking in a lot. Also, getting 100% heat load from the the actual heat pump is difficult in colder climates.
 
Ugh I need to figure out edit vs quote.
 
This is interesting. I know one person that put this into a new build and they are happy with it. There is nothing to compare the cost to though since it's a new build. The up front cost is outrageous, I have to imagine it would take a good 10-15 years to recoup the up front cost. I have to imagine come people would move out and buy a new house before they make their money back.

I like the idea though
 
smoke show said:
tjnamtiw said:
If my bill went UP after installation, I'd have that HVAC contractor out there by the back of his neck.
Click to expand...

Never said his bill went up.

Brand new construction, so nothing to compare to.

He had the installer and the electric company out. No problems found.

Ground loop depth is 8' plus, if my memory serves me correctly.
Click to expand...

When you say 8' I assume it is a "slinky" system. While depth matters in any type of geothermal system matters the volume matters more with a slinky system....
 
mepellet said:
smoke show said:
tjnamtiw said:
If my bill went UP after installation, I'd have that HVAC contractor out there by the back of his neck.
Click to expand...

Never said his bill went up.

Brand new construction, so nothing to compare to.

He had the installer and the electric company out. No problems found.

Ground loop depth is 8' plus, if my memory serves me correctly.
Click to expand...

When you say 8' I assume it is a "slinky" system. While depth matters in any type of geothermal system matters the volume matters more with a slinky system....
Click to expand...

yes, slinky
 
smoke show said:
yes, slinky
Click to expand...

If he's concerned about performance I really would check out the resistance heating piece. On most systems it just kicks in seamlessly, and then the bills inexplicably get higher.
 
I have a 4 ton Waterfurnace geothermal system that provides heating and cooling. It is the most efficient, hands down. I also consider Waterfurnace to be the best. I do not have high electric bills because of the geothermal. My ground loop is not huge, it has 3 vertical dry wells 185' deep. We did it when we built our house in '09. There was a large upfront cost ($22k or so) that we put in the mortgage but we got 30% of that back with the refund. The ROI is very well within 5-7 years on a new constrcution home.

Here's a quote from Waterfurnace:

"The increases in mortgage costs are typically offset by the decreased operating costs of our geothermal systems — providing a net positive cashflow."

Essentially I'm paying a few extra bucks a month in my mortgage instead of paying hundreds per month for any other heating source.

During our first winter (09-10) our highest electric bill was $199. This includes our drinking well (600' down), 80gal electric hot water heat and the electricity for the entire home, including the geo unit. No oil bill, no gas bill, no pellet bill, no coal bill.
 
johnny1720 said:
After living here for 5 years the wife and I have decided to replace the terrible oil burner with a geothermal heat pump. I will keep the pellet insert as a backup and it is currently being used during the install. The other pellet stove was moved to the man cave last year. It will be great to not have to shop around for pellets/fuel oil and just pay the monthly electric bill.


The initial up front cost is high but the tax rebate and savings on yearly operating expenses will more than pay for this. I will also be getting central air with this system.


Johnny
Click to expand...

Why not go solar at the same time? It would pay for itself also. No bills at all.

The NE ground is around 45 - 50*F. How are you going to bump that up to 100+ *F for heating? Using electric heaters at 16 cents per KW-HR?
 
turbotech said:
Why not go solar at the same time? It would pay for itself also. No bills at all.

The NE ground is around 45 - 50*F. How are you going to bump that up to 100+ *F for heating? Using electric heaters at 16 cents per KW-HR?
Click to expand...
Geothermal doesn't heat or cool the liquid that is in the lines. It uses the temperature of the earth which transfers to the liquid and then it goes through a compressor that uses that heat to generate heating or cooling which is in coils and uses forced air over the coils.
 
I misunderstood the post. This is a real geothermal heat pump system. Combined with a solar system I do see advantages.
 
Krik said:
smoke show said:
yes, slinky
Click to expand...

If he's concerned about performance I really would check out the resistance heating piece. On most systems it just kicks in seamlessly, and then the bills inexplicably get higher.
Click to expand...

Nah, he's not concerned.

Matter of fact he's not with us anymore.

Its the new owners concern now.

I was just stating some real world expienences.

Thats all.
 
Have a buddy with Geo-Thermal and he still has a pellet stove.

When its cold, its only good to the mid 60's. Afer that, the electric rate goes through the roof (so he says). He has a Breckwell (model? ) freestanding thats vented through his fireplace. I know its a multi fuel model. It has an agitator in it. He rarely ever cleans it. Maybe twice a season. Had it for 5-6 yrs now and only replaced the agitator rod twice (used to burn just corn).

Summer is nice..... Winter. Not so much.
 
DexterDay said:
Have a buddy with Geo-Thermal and he still has a pellet stove.

When its cold, its only good to the mid 60's. Afer that, the electric rate goes through the roof (so he says). He has a Breckwell (model? ) freestanding thats vented through his fireplace. I know its a multi fuel model. It has an agitator in it. He rarely ever cleans it. Maybe twice a season. Had it for 5-6 yrs now and only replaced the agitator rod twice (used to burn just corn).

Summer is nice..... Winter. Not so much.
Click to expand...

He must have an older system and not Waterfurnace. I've heard that with other users who are not using the Waterfurnace brand. Waterfurnace is the most efficient out of all the geothermal setups, I am in Northeast PA and while it's not frigid winters here, it does get cold. The first winter it was in the 20's and teens all the time and I have no problem keeping it at 72. I could go to 80 if I wanted. My system does have an electric coil as an emergency backup in case the compressor fails or if the system can't keep up with the cold. But that has never come on since I've had it installed in 2009.
 
Ok so I know 5 people that have had systems installed by the same contractor as I am using. I will use my fathers house for reference as I know his numbers. The contractors shop is 20 minutes from my home.

Pre-geothermal Install (2008)
1200-1400 gallons of fuel oil per year, = $2400-$2800 @ $2.00 per gallon (2012 cost would be $4800 - $5600)
Post Geothermal
His electric bill went up about $1200 bucks a year. And he got almost 50% back of the 25k install and he was able to get AC. He also gets nearly free domestic hot water with his system, which further reduced his energy consumption. Using todays cost of fuel oil @ $4.00 per gallon he would recoup his 12.5k investment in just over 3 years.
He has a 3 ton unit for the first floor and a 2 ton unit for the 2nd floor. He has never once used the auxiliary resistance backup heat. The breaker is actually turned off in the panel box. He is older and keeps his house at about 72 degrees.

If the system will not keep the house @ 72 degrees then there is a problem with the system. There any many different types of geothermal setups, open loop, closed loops, wells and ponds. All of those have there pro's and con's. As far as the maintenance goes it also is closely tied into the type of loop system you have installed. I have also heard the stories of how the "electric bill is double" if you think look deeper you usually find out that it is double for 5 months of the year. So $110 for 7 months of the year and $220 for 5 months, to me that sounds really reasonable. I could easily burn 2 tons of pellets a month which would cost me $400 per month.

Will I remove my pellet stove, no that will never happen. Do I expect to heat my house for free, nope I know that will never happen.


I guess time will tell, they are bringing the heat pump next week and the loops are in the ground.
 
turbotech said:
johnny1720 said:
After living here for 5 years the wife and I have decided to replace the terrible oil burner with a geothermal heat pump. I will keep the pellet insert as a backup and it is currently being used during the install. The other pellet stove was moved to the man cave last year. It will be great to not have to shop around for pellets/fuel oil and just pay the monthly electric bill.


The initial up front cost is high but the tax rebate and savings on yearly operating expenses will more than pay for this. I will also be getting central air with this system.


Johnny
Click to expand...

Why not go solar at the same time? It would pay for itself also. No bills at all.

The NE ground is around 45 - 50*F. How are you going to bump that up to 100+ *F for heating? Using electric heaters at 16 cents per KW-HR?
Click to expand...

To go solar and do enough to get off the grid you are talking in upwards of 40k. Then you have to replace pieces and parts every 10 years. I also live in the crotch of a valley and I dont get as much sun as people down the road from me. I am paying about 12 cents per KW-HR and my system will be designed properly and it should rarely if ever use the electric resistance heat. That is what my pellet stove will be used for.
 
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