Newbie needs opinions on boiler, EKO, Biomass or GARN or ????

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Chester

New Member
Feb 10, 2012
3
Central MN
Have been doing alot of reading of the forums on hearth.com. There is a ton of great information here. Im going to be installing a wood boiler this next summer. Before going on the internet and learning about boilers I was looking at a smoke dragon. Have decided against because of the inefficiency. I have been convinced now that I want a gasser. I will be heating a 100 year old farm house(has been remodeled, new windows and insulation) about 1600 square feet. House has forced air with offpeak elec heat pump, elec plenum and lp backup furnace and lp water heater. I also want to heat a 40X80 pole shed 16' ceiling. The pole shed is partitioned into a 40X32 area with infloor radiant heat. I want to use this for a rec area and heat to 60 degrees or so. The rest of the pole shed 40X48 I want to use as a shop and heat to 50-55 if working on a project but not heat constantly. There is no heat source now in the 40X48 portion and is already cement so no in floor heat option there. The plan was to put gasser in pole shed and run unground lines to house for DHW and install a HX in duct work, leave existing system in place in house for backup and summer AC. In the pole shed hook up the in floor in the rec area and put a forced air HX in the other side. So finally here is my question, I think I have read that you need hotter water for the air HX and not as hot for the in floor heat and DHW. What boilers tend to work better for each? I have been looking at EKO 60, Biomass 60 and most recently at a GARN. Thinking the EKO and Biomass will work with out storage and have hotter water quicker, if I need storage I think I will go with a Garn, plenty of room for the monster in the shed. What kind of brought this question was someone mentioned on a thread about the Garn not having hot enough water in the am for showering etc.... Might not be an issue for me cuz Im going to preheat water before it goes into water heater, if its not hot enough I suppose the lp will kick in. Sorry for the long post but thought the more info the better the opinions.

For now we will keep working on the wood supply, my boys and I have cut and hauled 11 full cords of oak and ash in the last month. 4 cords split so far and 2 cords stacked. Goal is 20 cords by end of summer and another 20-25 next year. I want a stash before they move out, and I like the thought of being 3-4 years ahead.
 
Interesting. Is the last section of the pole barn, where the work shop will go, insulated at all? Tell us about the entire pole barn and insulation factor, if any. How far from the house is the pole barn for underground piping purpose? Do you have basement in the house?
 
Actually none of the pole shed is insulated yet. Plan is to spray foam walls, then 3" foam in ceiling with 12" blown in on top of that. The 40X32 portion also serves as our garage, two overhead doors 10x12 and 12x12 3" thick insulated doors. Pole shed is 50' from house. There is basement in house, dont want boiler down there, have stacked all my wood on palets and will put palets in shed with tractor after seasoning outside, dont want to handle it more than I have to. If you were thinking storage in the basement, that could happen if it was advantageous, plenty of room in shed otherwise and easier to access. Forgot to mention a loop for potential hottub in route from pole shed to house. As far as the shop portion of shed 40x48, at this time do not see heating or using it alot in winter, storage for hobby farm equipment and wood supply, but will insulate and have option to heat if wanted.
 
I think no matter what boiler you go with I'd add some storage. It makes it much more convienient, more efficient, Less cleaning of boiler, etc. A a boimass or eko is able to give you hot before heating the storage while the garn has to
heat the storage up to give you hot water. The garn is a little easier to run, no fine tunning, will burn slightly wetter wood and bigger splits. Even with storage being equall the garn will cost a little more. I think the pressurized systyms are a
little easier to maintain and will probably last longer. I was just reading of someone using a tarm that is 35 years old.
Good luck with your choice. J.T.
 
Sounds like you have quite a crew. My kids are 05 & 07 models, mostly moral support but the wife helped with a big oak tree a few years back. Since then its just been the dog and she's not much help. If you can afford the spray foam it will make your heating much easier. The quote for my 30x60x14 pole barn was over 10 grand just for the walls. My ceiling is just 16ft steel screwed to the trusses overlapped a little at the seams. I was able to lay R38 batts over this and put R19 in the walls. My 12x18 door is insulated and surprisingly I don't seem to lose that much heat pulling something in or out. The work area is where I would put your boiler and at least a 1000 gals of storage. I like your pallet idea to minimize the work. The losses from this alone should help keep this bearable plus you can add a unit to heat it up when you are working on something. The wood mess is easy to maintain here too. Most folks here say 130 is the minimum on a water to air hx but mine seems to do fine down to at least 110. My heat pump takes over when the water has cooled down below that level. You are probably used to the lukewarm HP heat and having the air handler cycle longer. You will need to calculate your heat losses somehow, but I bet your looking at least a 60kw (200,000 btu) model. I think any of the models you mentioned plus others would be fine.
 
One thing you'll come across in your reading here is if you have a workshop with radiant (and you do), and you only want to heat it "on demand", not all the time, you'll find it takes forever and a month to heat your slab up! Quite literally, it will likely take a few days to go from <30 to 60. Some suggest putting in a water to air HX for that more "instantaneous" heating. I have a 32x72 garage/shop, with radiant, yet I haven't hooked it up. My house (44x32) is radiant and indeed, it is slow to heat! So keep that in mind.

I think I'm the guy with the GArn who says sometimes in the morning I either can't heat hot water or it is VERY slow.....given my fire 20 hours ago. If I had the 2000, I bet this wouldn't be an issue. This winter with it being so warm, also not really an issue.

Another thing I have come to do is keep the sensor in the indirect DHW tank at 113. Plenty of hot water for a shower, or bath, or whatever....(60 gallon indirect I believe)...but don't waste a lot of heat. Some folks are concerned with legionare's, which can kill, and likes to breed in cooler water. Other's say 120 is just fine. I've gone down to 113. Last summer, I could go 4 days between fires in my 1500....sweet! Family of 5....2 teenage daughters...no problems. Though the one who likes the morning showers, I'll give her a heads up at night if it might be an issue. Truth be told, I bet she'd have no problems with a shower nearly any morning...though sometimes I awake and here the DHW pump running....and the boiler supply at 115. DHW will get to 114 in this condition, so I think it would be just fine.....but sure wouldn't be any recovery!

Couldn't be happier with the Garn, but go 2000 is my only advice. I'd think about putting it in a shop if you have any thoughts about dusty conditions, explosive gases, etc. It does draw outside air, so likely not really an issue....but....one of the boys is working on something, spills the gas across the floor, and the other throws wood on the fire. Again, probably not an issue....but it scares me. Gas spill burned down my house when I was a kid and took my little brother....though that was gas ignited in a gas hot water heater pilot light. Therefore I'm biased....
 
huskers - you are right I am used to lukewarm HP heat and fan running most of the time. Thanks for the info on effective water temps, was curious what that range of temps might be. Plan on doing my shed ceiling the same, screw the steel to rafters that are 4' apart. Have not calculated heat loss yet, but was also thinking 60kw (200,000 btu) would be about the right size.

bpirger - I didnt explain very well or you didnt quite understand, the part of shed with the in floor heat I would constantly maintain at 55-60 degrees, its the other part of the shed that I would "heat on demand". Thanks for info on real world range of water temps and opinion on size of GARN boiler. With the amount of money this will cost I want to make as few mistakes as possible. I also have a family of 5, 2 teenage boys and an 11 year old. No experience with teenage girls but I know the boys like LONG hot showers(didnt we all back then). I quess I wont bother them so much about it now that they are helping so well with cutting and preparing wood supply. Sorry to here about your brother what a terrible thing to experience as a kid.
 
I am not too worried about supplying 120 degree water, but my dishwasher needs 140 degree. If the worst comes to the worst I can put in an electric booster, which I was thinking of anyway as my shortage is water, not wood.

As the water comes out of the ground not far above freezing all year then I will live with the last bit if needed. Plus I use a lot of hot water in the summer and have a high heat demand in the winter. So I will need to keep the temperatures high no matter what.

My system is designed to heat the place to 65F at -20F using 120F water so I have a bit of spare capacity.
 
Chester,

Since it sounds like the Garn is on your list, you should send a pm to user "heaterman-". He seems to be the guy in your neck of the woods that is "in the know" about those particular units. Not sure what part of MN you are in, or what part he is in, but if your paths can cross, it might be worth the time just to pick his brain.

As far as your boiler choice, Im not of much help, as my heat load is well below yours. I only wish I had the space in an outbuilding like you do! My only advice is to make sure you insulate your underground lines well! Also, make sure they are big enough to handle your heat loads.
 
I have an EKO 60 which I'm quite happy with. In my opinion the Garn is ideal if you have the room and are willing to invest the extra money.
You have the right idea getting wood drying.
Good luck!
 
Very happy with my BioMass 60. It's purchase price and capability made it a great first, learner boiler. I was't sure heating with wood would fit my family so was cost conscious of my first boiler. Now love it so next time price will not be as strong a factor. I took a chance with the BioMass since it has far fewer years in service. So far I'm pleased. Enjoy the hunt.
 
Chester,
I think all of your questions and concerns are both good and valid. They also all come down to good system design and sizing. A heat ex-changer, whether water to water or air must be sized around entering water temperature and if you want to maximize your wood energy and storage, lower water temperature design is critical. A properly sized water to air will give you the same Btu output at 130 degree water as a smaller coil delivers at 180 degrees. The big difference is that it requires a lot less wood to bring water from 120 to 150 than it does to raise the same degrees from 150 to 180. The reason radiant floor works so well on low temps is the surface area and that surface area will translate the same effect with a coil or flat plate. I agree, radiant floor is a bad choice for any building that you want to adjust temperature in and have any response at all. IMHO radiant floor is a little extravagant for any building that you never take you shoes or shirt off in. It's nice but it's a much bigger investment. I do think you are on the right track. If you make the envelope efficient, everything gets easier. I also agree that storage is critical to efficiency and I don't believe it gets any simpler or safer than a Garn. They have been proving that for more than 30 years. There is about 40 feet of heat exchanger in a Garn 2000 that allows for superior heat transfer due to maximum surface area and integrated design. The Garn will never go to idle burn, regardless of storage temperature so no smoldering means no creosote which means effective and efficient heat transfer throughout the season. A non pressurized system does require a few rules need to be considered, but with proper installation will work without a problem and is a much safer system. The nice thing about a Garn is that you can open the door at any time without worry about smoke belching into the room.
As for you domestic water concern, I think that is just a question of proper storage and heat transfer to accommodate your personal needs. Storage is king with wood burning and Garn pioneered the concept over 30 years ago.
 
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