VC Defiant vs the Lopi Liberty

dhcltr said:

We're buying a new woodburning stove for my parents 1890's 7 bedroom farmhouse and are down to choosing between the vermont casting defiant and the lopi liberty. Any pros or cons on either stove? We're a little concerned about the catalytic converter system on the vc. Is it reliable? Of coarse the dealer raved about how awesome it is, but he's obviously biased. Any advise?

Thanks!

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Newer VC Cat stoves are a lot less maintenance intensive then previous models. The expensive catalytic assembly that was used previously has been replaced with a much more durable housing that lasts much longer. They also use a different Catalytic cumbustor that is cheaper to replace as well.

You will need to re-gasket the stove every 5-ish years. VC stoves use more gaskets than other manufactures. So, you need to understand that going in.

Burn times:
I am getting 10-14 hours of actual heat production on my older generation Catalytic Defiant.
Newer Defiants are reporting up to 18 hours in some cases. At the very least, burn times will be the same.

Is it reliable?
As far as function and heat, it seems it. But, maintenance time and costs must be taken into consideration.

Lopi Liberty:
Simple to use, low maintenance stove. I have never used one, though.


Which stove would I buy? If I was only burning one stove?
Seems like they are heating a pretty big home with 7 bedrooms. I would think a Blaze King King would be more appropriate. I am heating a drafty three bedroom stone farmhouse built in the 1700's. Especially if "Western NY" is the upstate part. A 7 bedroom home seems like a lot of space for a 3 cu ft stove.

What's the decor? How important is color/brass door, etc? I would definitely look at 3 cu. ft. or more in size. Who's doing the install? Can you help or do you need a dealer? Used stoves can be found. There's a liberty on the finger lakes region's craigslist right now with brass door and new blower for $1100. Search Tempest can help you search Craigslists within driving distance. The new Woodstock Progress stove looks very nice (see many posts on this site) and can be delivered to you or a local terminal. The Englander 30 might suit your parents fine and it can be found at the big box stores or online for about half the cost of some of the other stoves. The large Drolet stove would also work and can be mail ordered. I am not trying to steer you away from the local dealers - of course go with them if you need to in order to be comfortable with the purchase. Both good stoves you are looking at.

Another question that needs to be asked do you have an existing flue?
If so what is the size?

MishMouse said:

Another question that needs to be asked do you have an existing flue?
If so what is the size?

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In regards to the Liberty/Defiant comparison, both take the common 6" liner.

dhcltr said:

They currently have a 1970's timberline stove with an 8" flue and a clay liner. We want to have it professionally installed with a 6" liner, but my brother will help with the installation to keep costs down. Their house is very large, but several of the bedrooms are usually closed off, so they're looking to heat 2000-2500 sq feet. We're in the Buffalo area, so except for this year, it can get very cold and snowy! We really like the looks of the VC stove, but my brother had heard that there were issues with the catalytic system, but maybe that's on the older stoves. We like the way you can see the secondary burn with the Lopi tubes.

Thanks for all the help!

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The issues with the Defiant's cat system were mostly from a previous design. the new design is more durable and cheaper to maintain.

I would go larger than a Liberty or a Defiant. Especially if it is an old how that was using a big old Pre-EPA stove. I am very serious when I say that you should really look at the Blaze king King. It has a 4.4 cu ft firebox, good cat system, but requires an 8" liner.

Reason why I think the Blaze King King should be looked at:
- Large home
- Old home: Not nearly as tight as a newer home
- Cold, long winters
- The 4.4 cu ft firebox should easily match the heat output of the large old stove
- Super long burn times means less loading. Less loading might be important as your parents get older.

In addition to the stoves you've considered I would look at the following, again opting for the large stoves. There are significant differences in looks/aesthetics as well as operating and cost differences, of course. This is not meant to be exhaustive, but all can be found on the internet so you can get an idea of what they look like and their other specs.

8" flues are noted.

Buck 94 (4.4 cu. Ft, 8†flue)
Avalon Olympic (3.1 cu ft –sister to the Liberty)
Napoleon 1900 (3.1 cu. ft)
Hearthstone Equinox (4.0 cu. ft., 8†flue)
Hearthstone Mansfield (3.2 cu. ft)
Woodstock Progress Hybrid (2.7 cu. ft but looks bigger?)
Englander NC-30 (3.5 cu. ft)
Drolet HT-2000 (3.4 cu. ft)
Regency F3100 (2.9 cu. ft)
Harman TL300 (3.0 cu. ft)
Elm wood stove (various sizes, but unknown how “useable†the larger [longer] firebox is)
Blaze King (multiple large stoves)
Quadrafire 5700 (3.0 cu. ft)

We have heated our house from the basement with the Liberty since 2009, very happy with it. Get the blower on it and you will have one awesome heater. We like burning north/south in the Liberty instead of east/west, it takes 16 inch splits but I cut our wood so I make the length 14.75 - 15 inches.

zap

I have had the liberty since october of last year and I would not have any other stove period. The difference with the liberty and defiant is the defiant will burn clean at a lower temperature while not cooking you out of the house. The liberty likes to run hot or at least mine does. My stove seems to like to run between 650 and 750 but its usually on the upper side of those two numbers and that results in the house being between 80 and 90 degrees. Its hovering close to 90 in here now with an outside temperature of 44. Like zap said I to load N/S. Stole that idea from him and glad I did. If you like it hot then the liberty is the way to go!!

I think N/S burns hotter from our experience, we like N/S for safety reasons also. Loading N/S you don't worry about the split rolling out when opening the door or hitting the glass.

zap

zapny said:

I think N/S burns hotter from our experience, we like N/S for safety reasons also. Loading N/S you don't worry about the split rolling out when opening the door or hitting the glass.

zap

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+1

Our Republic seems to prefer n/s a bit over e/w for some reason. But mostly I like that nothing's going to roll into the glass, and out of we need to open the stove for whatever reason.

I like the looks of the Liberty but I'm a little biased since I've been in love with the Endeavor since I saw it and the Liberty is basically a bigger version. I have never seen the Woodstock stoves in person but they look amazing online, plus the Progress really interests me both functionally and aesthetically.

If you're having the dealer do the install, check out showroom and compare the quality of installs there. WAY back when we looked for our first DV stove (over 10 years ago), we looked at Vermont Castings and while we liked the look the dealer had pretty low quality installs. I don't think that dealer is still around though.

I just went to check out the new Defiant. Wow - does it have a HUGE, fully useable firebox. I gotta think that it must put out a ton of heat. I also inquired into current prices for replacing the refactory/fireback - it wasn't too bad - 200 and change for a complete replacement. According to the dealer they haven't had any issues as of this time. One guy dropped the shell cover on the floor and it cracked, it was replaced under the seven year warranty. The cat is around 125 or 150 to replace (I forget the exact amount). I have had a cat stove for awhile now and I think that the flexibility, longer burn times and reduced wood usage easily offset the replacement cost. Just my opinion though

I was going to pull the trigger and be a new VC Defiant quasi guinea pig but it looks like I may be a bit short on my top combustible clearance, that will be another thread in the near future because I may be looking for some ideas for a solution to that problem.

Anyways, I am going to wait until the official specs on the Jotul 55 come out. I looked at the 500 but it just doesn't have the firebox size that I need and the F600 is about 1 inch too tall to fit the rear vent under my stone work in my fireplace. I was really bummed about that

Good luck in your search!

firewoodjunky said:

I just went to check out the new Defiant. Wow - does it have a HUGE, fully useable firebox. I gotta think that it must put out a ton of heat. I also inquired into current prices for replacing the refactory/fireback - it wasn't too bad - 200 and change for a complete replacement. According to the dealer they haven't had any issues as of this time. One guy dropped the shell cover on the floor and it cracked, it was replaced under the seven year warranty. The cat is around 125 or 150 to replace (I forget the exact amount). I have had a cat stove for awhile now and I think that the flexibility, longer burn times and reduced wood usage easily offset the replacement cost. Just my opinion though

I was going to pull the trigger and be a new VC Defiant quasi guinea pig but it looks like I may be a bit short on my top combustible clearance, that will be another thread in the near future because I may be looking for some ideas for a solution to that problem.

Anyways, I am going to wait until the official specs on the Jotul 55 come out. I looked at the 500 but it just doesn't have the firebox size that I need and the F600 is about 1 inch too tall to fit the rear vent under my stone work in my fireplace. I was really bummed about that

Good luck in your search!

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Your numbers on the new Defiant parts are pretty close to matching the numbers I got during my research. And it does hold a lot of wood and it throws a ton of heat.

My concern is that a large, old, 7 bedroom home that, when closed off, is still 2500 sq ft in Buffalo is a lot for any stove to take on. Which is why I feel going with a 4 cu ft stove is the safer direction.

Yeah, that's a lot of house in Buffalo. I would probably be looking at a 4.0 also, if they were looking for full home heating. I guess it depends on the flow of the house, because two 3.0+ stoves would probably work a lot better. But if two stoves aren't an option....

I was just kind of throwing out some more info based on the original two stove question.

Too many great stoves out there! It's a great problem to have but it makes the decision making process really difficult.

BrowningBAR said:

dhcltr said:

We're buying a new woodburning stove for my parents 1890's 7 bedroom farmhouse and are down to choosing between the vermont casting defiant and the lopi liberty. Any pros or cons on either stove? We're a little concerned about the catalytic converter system on the vc. Is it reliable? Of coarse the dealer raved about how awesome it is, but he's obviously biased. Any advise?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Newer VC Cat stoves are a lot less maintenance intensive then previous models. The expensive catalytic assembly that was used previously has been replaced with a much more durable housing that lasts much longer. They also use a different Catalytic cumbustor that is cheaper to replace as well.

You will need to re-gasket the stove every 5-ish years. VC stoves use more gaskets than other manufactures. So, you need to understand that going in.

Burn times:
I am getting 10-14 hours of actual heat production on my older generation Catalytic Defiant.
Newer Defiants are reporting up to 18 hours in some cases. At the very least, burn times will be the same.

Is it reliable?
As far as function and heat, it seems it. But, maintenance time and costs must be taken into consideration.

Lopi Liberty:
Simple to use, low maintenance stove. I have never used one, though.


Which stove would I buy? If I was only burning one stove?
Seems like they are heating a pretty big home with 7 bedrooms. I would think a Blaze King King would be more appropriate. I am heating a drafty three bedroom stone farmhouse built in the 1700's. Especially if "Western NY" is the upstate part. A 7 bedroom home seems like a lot of space for a 3 cu ft stove.

Click to expand...

Can I ask how you know all of this information?! This was a very iformative post..

Coleman Stove said:

BrowningBAR said:

dhcltr said:

We're buying a new woodburning stove for my parents 1890's 7 bedroom farmhouse and are down to choosing between the vermont casting defiant and the lopi liberty. Any pros or cons on either stove? We're a little concerned about the catalytic converter system on the vc. Is it reliable? Of coarse the dealer raved about how awesome it is, but he's obviously biased. Any advise?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Newer VC Cat stoves are a lot less maintenance intensive then previous models. The expensive catalytic assembly that was used previously has been replaced with a much more durable housing that lasts much longer. They also use a different Catalytic cumbustor that is cheaper to replace as well.

You will need to re-gasket the stove every 5-ish years. VC stoves use more gaskets than other manufactures. So, you need to understand that going in.

Burn times:
I am getting 10-14 hours of actual heat production on my older generation Catalytic Defiant.
Newer Defiants are reporting up to 18 hours in some cases. At the very least, burn times will be the same.

Is it reliable?
As far as function and heat, it seems it. But, maintenance time and costs must be taken into consideration.

Lopi Liberty:
Simple to use, low maintenance stove. I have never used one, though.


Which stove would I buy? If I was only burning one stove?
Seems like they are heating a pretty big home with 7 bedrooms. I would think a Blaze King King would be more appropriate. I am heating a drafty three bedroom stone farmhouse built in the 1700's. Especially if "Western NY" is the upstate part. A 7 bedroom home seems like a lot of space for a 3 cu ft stove.

Click to expand...

Can I ask how you know all of this information?! This was a very iformative post..

Click to expand...

Hmm. Not sure which part you were referring to. I'll cover it all so you know where and how I based my opinions/conclusions:

Th information regarding the new Vermont Castings designs and materials was gathered from research and speaking with multiple dealers.

The info on regasketing a VC stove was based on gathered info and doing a partial rebuild of a VC Encore. I will probably be doing some regasketing to the recent Defiant stove I picked up to give it a more thorough inspection during the summer to be sure everything is functioning as it should.

The burn times on the new Defiants are based on people that have posted here and those that I have spoken with in person.

The burn times on the previous generation Defiant is based on first hand knowledge as I currently run a Defiant 1945.

The info on Lopi was based on limited research I've done and the general knowledge of non-cat steel stoves.

The info on what you can expect from an older home was based on living in an older home built in the 1740s.


I hope this helps.

dhcltr,

Whatever you end up getting for your folks' house do let us know, and post some pics. We all love stove porn! I've lusted after a Lopi Liberty for a long time but that will be in my next house if ever. There are some beautiful stoves available now, and many are very capable heaters.

BrowningBAR said:

The issues with the Defiant's cat system were mostly from a previous design. the new design is more durable and cheaper to maintain.

.

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i'd say time has yet to tell us if this is more durable or not, give them 5-10years

A1Stoves.com said:

BrowningBAR said:

The issues with the Defiant's cat system were mostly from a previous design. the new design is more durable and cheaper to maintain.

.

Click to expand...

i'd say time has yet to tell us if this is more durable or not, give them 5-10years

Click to expand...

I disagree with that.

Let me be clear, the VC stove cat system is not as good as the Woodstock or the Blaze King design. VC lags behind both in terms of customer service and quality control when compared to those two companies (England Stove Works is also known for great customer service). But, the new system is cheaper to maintain and is more durable than the previous system they had in place.

I have a 2400 sq ft 2 story brick home built in 1996, moved into the place in November 1996. I designed the house to have a regular fireplace in the large family room (mistake) on the first floor and put a nipple in the basement for a free standing wood burner. I went thru December 1996 and January 1997 without a stove and purchased a Lopi Liberty in February 1997. This stove was some of the best money I have spent. I will say that sometimes the stove seems a little small for long unattended burns, but I can usually get an easy 10 hours out of it with a good load of hard locust or red oak. Naturally the type of wood burnt will depend on the burn time available.

This stove for every year I have had it usually gets started sometime at the beginning of November, and it goes constantly until the middle of April. In that time I will burn between 3 and 4 cords of wood. It heats the home really good as it is in an unfinished concrete block basement (large heat sync) and I just use the natural radiant heat as it travels up the stairway warming the whole house. I also keep the furnace blower going all the time and leave a couple cold air returns open that I cut in downstairs to pull the heat from the basement ceiling. This stove will keep my home to about 72 degrees or so without a problem, but it will struggle when the outside temperature is below 10 deg F or so. The concrete block just sucks the heat out of the basement and the stove can't keep up. I know if it were studded and insulated it would be a whole different experience.

My stove is now 15 years old. I have rebuilt and replaced the interior (steel & brick) components about 4 times in its life so far and a door gasket gets replaced about every 3 years or so. After this year my whole door assembly needs rebuilt as the window gaskets are shot allowing the fire to get more air then usual, so my wood consumption has gone up somewhat because of that this year. As with anything, if you use it, you have to maintain it.

Would I buy this stove again, yes I would! It's easy to use, light, and adjust, even my wife can understand and use it! That's saying something for the simplicity of the stove.

I have never used a Vermont Casting Defiant , so I cannot comment on those. I will say though, I will never purchase a stove that has a CAT. I know that.

Craig

A1Stoves.com said:

BrowningBAR said:

The issues with the Defiant's cat system were mostly from a previous design. the new design is more durable and cheaper to maintain.

.

Click to expand...

i'd say time has yet to tell us if this is more durable or not, give them 5-10years

Click to expand...

I don't see that isn't a valid claim. It's quite clear that the 2n1 system is much more durable and the parts are cheaper (not to mention, now covered under a lifetime warranty).

Will the new parts last 5-10 years?
I guess we won't know until 5-10 years comes as you said, but then again that time span really has nothing to do with what was originally claimed.