Snow melt system

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muncybob

muncybob

Minister of Fire
Apr 8, 2008
2,158
Near Williamsport, PA
Looking for resources on installation of a snow melt system. We have an apprx 100' walkway from where we park our cars to the front door. There are 7 steps up a gradual incline to the cars. Since this area needs to be rebuilt I figure what better time to invest a few bucks and not shovel snow much while progressing into our golden years. Probably going with pavers for the walkway and parking area unless poured/stamped concrete is affordable to us.

I think we will look at a manual system rather than installing sensors, etc. since somebody is normally home and no biggie to open a zone if snow/ice occurs. When we had the boiler installed I had a 3rd zone plumbed for expansion and this may be the item. Originally we planned the extra zone for heat storage and while that would be nice esp. in the shoulder season I would really like to not shovel snow/ice when I'm 70+ yrs old. I believe the boiler could keep up with demand if the snowmelt zone is not opened when temps are below 10 degrees or so and since most of our snowfall occurs at temps higher than that we should be ok.

So, any resources out there or reasons why I should not do this?
 
There has been a fair amount of discussion on this very forum on this topic over the years. Throw "snow melt" into the search and see what you come up with.

From what I've seen/read/heard a snow melt system requires MEGA btu's to melt snow. It will need to be glycol based with an HX if you don't plan to run it all the time. And last, I seem to recall more than one person indicating that even the best snow melt systems will not melt "all snow" in a heavy snow situation. So you will likely end up with snow on the sidewalk if it's really snowing out there whether you have it or not. So don't throw that shovel away...

And for what it's worth 100' long sidewalk is no small task. I suspect that's going to be a fair amount of pex and insualation ($$$).
 
Heating requirement depends on the rate of snowfall, air temperature, wind velocity, and humidity. ASHRAE HVAC 1987 handbook chapter 55 has a design procedure. It looks pretty simple. These handbooks can often be found in libraries.

For example St Louis residential application would want 122 BTUh/ft² . Mean fluid temperature of about 95°F. In St Louis average winter, the system would be needed about 33 hours.

If you could spare 40,000 BTU/hr every now and then this will work for you. The cost per year would be about 33 x 40,000 = 1,320,000 BTU/year if your sidewalk in St Louis was 36" wide.
 
Snowmelt design will fall in the 90- 200 BTU/sq. ft range. Larger commercial jobs like helicopter pads and snowmelt pads at the airports could design around 250 BTU/ sq. ft.

100 BTU/ sq. ft is a good design for a small residential system. It depends on how quickly you want to melt the snow.

It always best to stsrt the melting as the snow falls. trying to melt away 12 inches can take some time.

Use a spring wound timer for manual control so you don't forget it's on.

hr
 
You ought to do something like my uncle did and just build an underground tunnel from the house to the garage. :lol:

Everytime I am out cleaning snow I think it would be nice but the reality is that the install and operation of suck is quite expensive. On your small walkway probably not too bad though. My driveway is around 3000 sqft.
 
Sat threw an all day class on this, a few months back. Nuts and bolts are. good under slab insulation, larger tubing is used typical 3/4, low water temps/higher flow rates, using the manual operation has surprising lower BTU requirement then expected. This wont work well with pavers , heat transfer is to slow. I would spend my money on the piping ,pumps , valves etc. ---- not stamped concrete!!
 
If you don't want to shovel snow, it seems to me like it would be easier to hire the local teenager. Not sure it would be cheaper.
 
You will also need an absolutely foolproof return temperature protection system. That water will be coming back a lot colder than it does from indoor heating emitters.
 
And don't forget to consider the question of where all that melted water is going to go and where is it going to refreeze?

Looks like we're all snowing on your parade.

It is a pleasant fantasy, though. Isn't it. I often think about a manually valved melt-off setup for the porch steps after I shovel the bulk of the snow off. More of a deicing system than snow melt. The upfront hardware costs stop me in my dream-tracks every time.
 
A lot to think about, but I thinks it's obtainable. I mentioned stamped concrete because I wondered about doing this under pavers?
Yep Dave, I've been thinking about where the melt run off will go....need to wrap my head around that but I have 8 months or so to figure it out.
Return temp protection is a biggie...what's the BEST system/method?
I do like the timer idea!! I can see me forgetting to turn it off. I'm hoping our library has some resources as mentioned.

If we ultimately come up with something that eliminates the ice I'll be a happy camper!
 
Pavers are typically set on a sand or stone dust bed, so not a very good heat transfer connection. I'd go with a stamped concrete slab.

A simple method to assure return temperature is a 3 way thermostatic valve at the boiler. But you would still need a means to reduce the temperature supplied to the slab. You really don't want 180F going to the slab.

There are some pre-plumbed mixing stations with controls, like tekmar, that will mix down the temperature from the boiler and watch the return temperature. Most use a motorized mix valve or variable speed injection pumping.

Look for some good snowmelting info info at the radiant manufacturers sites Watts Radiant, Uponor, Viega, Mr Pex, Rehau. Roth, etc.

Also John Siegenthaler has some good articles on snowmelting. All are archived at www.pmmag.com. look at March 2006 for "Meltdown Stratgies" He also recently had a snowmelt article in HPAC magazine up in Canada.

hr

Here is the link for you
www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/ba38f286bf5d9010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
 
From what I had read in some of the old boiler books, the system was typically turned on in early winter & off in early spring. This was the way many did it with cheap coal heat, Randy
 
muncybob said:
A lot to think about, but I thinks it's obtainable. I mentioned stamped concrete because I wondered about doing this under pavers?
Yep Dave, I've been thinking about where the melt run off will go....need to wrap my head around that but I have 8 months or so to figure it out.
Return temp protection is a biggie...what's the BEST system/method? I do like the timer idea!! I can see me forgetting to turn it off. I'm hoping our library has some resources as mentioned.

If we ultimately come up with something that eliminates the ice I'll be a happy camper!
Click to expand...

Like Stee said, this deffinetly calls for a H.E. and glycol, the H.E. will eliminate real cold return water from hitting your Gun. It might be worth a few bucks spent on a good radiant guy to size things and make sure that you have the extra BTU's avaialble for this project. By the time your done buying the foam insulation for under the walkway and a pump, heat exchanger, piping, etc. while not being a real high $$$ job, I'd hate to see it not work properly for the (maybe) $800 - $1000 dollars that it might take over the cost of a "regular" concrete walk. But it sure sounds like a real nice option to have, maybe when your able to burn the mortgage, you'll be able to throw the snow shovel in with it too! :lol:
 
muncybob said:
.....I'm hoping our library has some resources as mentioned....
Click to expand...
If not, name me a large metro area near you and I will give you a swag. Enough to start getting a budget together and checking if you have excess capacity.
 
All good stuff folks, thanx! A lot to consider here and def will be seeking professional help! This will be a summer time project so I have a lot to learn before getting a pro out here just to be sure it's being done the way it should be....I only want to do this once!!!! It's a bit of a luxury for sure but hey, you can't take the $$ with you right!? Just to have a ballpark idea, anybody with enough knowledge out there that can give me a $$ estimate on the the 100' walkway and parking area for 2 vehicles of maybe 16X20??

I fear that if I concrete the parking area a certain Mrs will want the rest of our lane paved....now that will be expensive!!!
 
We have done many snow melt applications, just about everyone we have done, money was no object. It is a LUXURY so it is priced that way to do it right. Stadler-viega, tekmar, Rehau all have manuals and or online info for complete system designs. Pavers do require more btu's but doable, similar to sidewalks & crosswalks we have done in Royal Oak and Frankenmouth . System design is very important in order to make it work with your existing system. Return temp protection is very simple and the least of the design concerns. Stadler does have a inslab timer stat for much cheaper than the nice Tekmar 090 & 091 socket. Don't skimp an materials and controls you use, for example the ground insulation. We have seen many bubble foil jobs that were worthless because they didn't separate earth from the slab like it was claimed. Nothing worse than spending $70,000 only to find your heating the ground and your 1.6 million BTU boiler can't keep up even on a mild day. Oops, then somebody gets a good idea of making it an idling system to get it to work. Came with a nice 12K gas bill too


http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/snowmelting/090.html
http://www.viega.net/cps/rde/xbcr/en-us/Viega_S-no-ice_Snow_Melting_System.pdf
http://www.viega.net/5876.htm
 
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