New Progress Report, the good, the bad, and the ugly

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qain

Member
Jan 31, 2009
17
Western MD
First the ugly, HOLY COW is this stove heavy. I took the easy way and rented a skid steer as it was going in the basement, and I could drive it right into the house. Put down some 1/2 pvc sections three feet long and rolled it like the ancients did once in the house. It was on a concrete floor, so could move it with one hand. I put it together by myself, which was very easy, the only trick was getting it off it's pallet stand. I was able to lift one side enough to slide the pallet out a bit at a time. After the third time, the front legs were touching concrete, and then it was easy to tip it an inch and pull the pallet the rest of the way out. I was going to get friends and beer, but we are all getting older, and are right at that age where we are learning we are mortal and twist, pull, and generally hurt ourselves everytime we try to do things like this...so skid steer it was...which is always fun anyway.

The Bad...I have been running the stove for a few days, and I am not convinced of the heat output. Mind you, it has been 40's here so the draft is not as good as it will be once it gets some real cold. I have to say I am puzzled. I had a Fisher Grandma before. My house would run 68-76 and back between fill ups. I found it very comfortable between 74-76. With the new stove, I find the temp levels out at 72-73, BUT it feels much warmer than the 76 of the other stove. The only thing I can figure, is the old stove put out the heat and created a draft of sorts coming upstairs, which caused it to feel cooler because of a breeze. The new stove is not as intense, so no breeze. I had never had a woodstove until last year when we bought this house. I learned quick, I experimented, and within a short time became a master of the ol' smoke dragon. Now comes the EPA beast, and I am convinced its female. You must pay much more attention to it at first, but once you have it...well...then it does not want you to chase it anymore, it's content and happy, and you just want to play with it's knobs and buttons :).

The good...its really a beautiful stove, very well put together from what I can tell, WS service has been great! I have never run a EPA stove before, let alone a cat one. I found it pretty easy to get things going, and am amazed at the burn times with the relative heat output. It's not the blast furnace the Fisher was, but much much more even. My only concern here is the -5 degree 60mph wind blizzard in the future. I am not sure the stove has the backbone to keep it 70+, but I am sure we will not freeze. I remain hopeful it does though. My upstairs bedrooms feel warmer, in fact the whole house feels warmer, even though the thermometer says it's 2-3 degrees colder than the other stove...again I feel it's a air movement deal. 750 degrees with 3 hours, or 450-500 for 8-10. Seems to make a difference.

I do have a request though. Can someone post a picture of what the screens should look like looking up from the glass? I was looking yesterday, and they seemed to be covering the top opening. Today I looked, and I am guessing they fell, because I can see tabs and it no longer coveres the top opening...not sure how it happened, expansion? Not in tight to begin with? Rememberers broken?

Anyway, I am very pleased with the stove overall, as long as it has the BTU's when the snow is flying, I will be thrilled.
 
What is the firebox size of a Fisher Grandma? I know the Grandpa is the largest, and it was a big stove.
 
I too had a grandma bear. That thing was an intense heater. It could put out way more heat than my 30, but my house stays overall warmer w/ the modern stove that I am running now and I have saved a lot of wood.

I think you'll wind up finding the same thing, even in the cooler temps. With temps in the single digits for daytime highs I'd come home from work to a cold grandma bear, a house at 60 degrees, and a furnace that had just kicked on and it would take me an hour to bring things back up to 70. Now, I no longer have to restart from a cold stove, I come home to a 65 degree house w/ no furnace running, but it still takes me an hour to get things up to 70.

I think you'll find similar results.

pen
 
Welcome to the forum qain.

What you are experiencing with the heat feeling different is what most of us have learned. There is something to this "soft heat" idea. It really is different. Radiant heat heats objects.
 
Those pictures were great. The screens both had indeed fell down. I was able to put them back without any real difficulty. I really think the other link was on to something with the bypass lever vibrating the screens due to the metal surfaces rubbing. I am not sure what I can do about this? Any ideas?

Thanks for the comments about the soft heat...it's very surreal to be warmer in cooler overall temperatures.
 
A far as heat output, I think you will find a world of difference between running at 450-500 degree stovetop with the cat versus running with secondaries at 600-650 degrees. At 500 degrees I was feeling like I had a $2400 version of my old (free) stove, albeit cleaner burning and much prettier. At 650 degrees on a sub zero night I am beyond the peak of the old stove, and this stove settles in and burns rock-steady for a much longer time than the old one did.
 
I must admit I am a bit timid on the upper end, and like you this is my first EPA stove. I'd never say this is THE way to do it, but it gets it done for me...

I like to get the stove up to the 500 range with a smaller load, giving me a good coal bed, and then fill it up. I haven't packed it in there like you'll see in some pictures here - the manual says to leave some room for the secondaries. Usually I can look from the front over the top of the load and see the back of the stove, and never above the andirons in the front. Wide-open damper to get it goinging, stutting down to 50% fairly soon based on what I see. Shooting for rolling secondaries that are cooking the top of the load.

I worry about flame impingement on the cat and rapid temp changes of the stone more than I do flue temp (I used to run the flue probe at 900 degrees all winter - I don't think I have seen the flue up to 700 degrees with how I run the PH.) Perhaps I could run it harder when getting the stovetop up to the higher temps, but I tend to ease it up there in a gradual fashion, openning the draft up gradually as needed to increase the stovetop temp. Right now I'm half an hour after a reload, the screen is completely red, but the flame tips are just licking up to it (looks like it needs to be cleaned). At least half the secondary holes are breathing fire, a lot of heat coming out the front, and the stovetop is edging up to 550.

The key for me is the secondaries - a 600 degree stovetop with a dark firebox is a much "colder" stove than a 600 degree stovetop with rolling secondaries.
 
Thanks, I have been too timid myself I believe. One day I will have enough fooling around with it, and fire it up until I either see 650 or the wife comes down in her underwear...either way I am a happy man.
 
I am all for the shedding of bulky sweaters and fleeces in the house, and think a company could build a highly successful marketing campaign on this theme. I will note that a 600 degree PH results in less than ideal storage conditions for Girl Scouts Thin Mints.
 
Flamestead said:
I worry about flame impingement on the cat

I wouldn't worry to much about flame impingement. I brought it up in a email discussion with the Woodstock owner and here is his reply.

Basically we found that “flame impingement†was a much over-rated problem. Its very transitory and not likely to cause damage to the substrate or coating (in spite of all the talk about it). We have tested “flame impingement†using both infrared analysis, and actual thermocouples attached to the catalyst, and have never been able to create enough heat to cause damage.
 
re: flame impingement

With the Progress, I can't see any way flames could ever get up into the cat with that winding exhaust path. If the flames made it past the screen, they still have a long, long way to go to get suck into the cat.
 
How would flame damage a cat?
Doesn't a cat burn hotter than a flame?
 
qain said:
Those pictures were great. The screens both had indeed fell down. I was able to put them back without any real difficulty. I really think the other link was on to something with the bypass lever vibrating the screens due to the metal surfaces rubbing. I am not sure what I can do about this? Any ideas?



This is just a theory of mine at this point. I did slather some high temp anti-sieze compound (the stuff made for bolt threads) on the offending parts and it did help but not eliminate the noisy operation. Thus far the screens have stayed in place. Don't know if that's because of the anti-sieze or because the screens are brand new. The old ones sure didn't like to stay put.
 
Woke up this morning to a screen in the firebox. I figured it must have been my fault. I inspected the area a bit further and found indeed I had not quite put them all the way in place the first time I put them back. I am hoping they fell the first time due to the shipping and being installed. So, provided they stay put now, I am good, anymore slippage or falling, and I will give WS a call and see if they have any new info. I played around with the bypass handle when I had the top off, and there is some slight movement as the handle skips on the metal. I tried quick turns, slow turns, it didn't matter, it bounced the area a bit either way. I am not sure what can be done to alleviate this, but I do consider it one of the main causes of the screen issues people have been reporting...at least that is my working hypothesis. We are going to get some proper winter temps here this weekend, so I will get a rough idea if the stove can handle it.
 
I had the same issue with the handle causing the damper to hop around.
I took the plate that holds the rod into the doors channel and filed all of the edges where it meets the rotating rod. What happens is the sharp edges start to wear notches into the rod and it no longer slides smoothly.
Try to smooth out everything that you can where the rotating rod and the bypass door meet up with each other.
 
One screen fell down again....ugh. They stay in place wonderfully until I turn the bypass handle. I thought about a magnet to hold them in place, but my research shows there are magnets that can stand up to 900 degrees or so, but I would think the temp there would be higher than that.

On the other hand, the house has been wonderfully warm, and I have not had to feed it more than three times in a 24 hour period.
 
Interesting. Seems strange, I've never had an issue with the screens coming out of place. I've taken the top off and don't see them move when I open or close the bypass door. I cleaned my screens last night with a 1" paint brush by holding the screens with one hand in place then using the other hand to brush it. I can watch the screens from the top to see what I'm doing at least for the part of the screens seen through the bypass door.

Make sure your screeen are tucked up real well at both ends, fitting tightly to the stove.

You are correct, you won't find a magnet that will handle the temp, they will demagnetize when they get hot.
 
Make sure the rear (flue side) of the screen's bottom is is resting in the slotted channel, otherwise it will tend to slip backwards.
 
Had the stove up to 550ish last night. Lots of heat. I have two questions.

1. The middle of the soapstone was 550ish, close to the flue the metal was 650ish. When you measure the top temp, are we looking at highest, middle...don't want to damage anything.

2. I have been unable to get a nice hot cat burn. I have tried some of the methods listed on the forum, but have never seen the top temp get over 375 no matter what with the draft cut back. I have had it to where there is just a tiny lick of flame in the box, no smoke out the pipe, and the top will not rise over 375 no matter how long I wait. I have tried to start it at 250 top temp, and over 300 top temp. The top will rise to about 350-375 and stay there. I have played with the draft anywhere between totally closed, to an inch rotated open. I am burning well seasoned black locust. My draft is great...I am sure it's user error as I have never run a cat stove before.
 
The more creosote the cat is burning the hotter it will get. If you are burning well seasoned wood, chances are that you are not creating that much smoke for the cat to re-burn, therefore it will not be getting that hot. When I throttle my stove way down, I typically see the same temperatures that you are. You'll know the cat is working for 2 reasons: 1-there is no visible smoke, 2-With the air turned all the way down and minimal or no flames, the stove top would not get up to 375 deg unless the cat was active.
 
qain said:
Had the stove up to 550ish last night. Lots of heat. I have two questions.

1. The middle of the soapstone was 550ish, close to the flue the metal was 650ish. When you measure the top temp, are we looking at highest, middle...don't want to damage anything.

2. I have been unable to get a nice hot cat burn. I have tried some of the methods listed on the forum, but have never seen the top temp get over 375 no matter what with the draft cut back. I have had it to where there is just a tiny lick of flame in the box, no smoke out the pipe, and the top will not rise over 375 no matter how long I wait. I have tried to start it at 250 top temp, and over 300 top temp. The top will rise to about 350-375 and stay there. I have played with the draft anywhere between totally closed, to an inch rotated open. I am burning well seasoned black locust. My draft is great...I am sure it's user error as I have never run a cat stove before.

It seems most folks are reporting high temperatures in the 500-550 range with a few getting higher and a few getting lower. I'd place the thermometer in the center of the stove top. 650 is not going to do any damage either. Even the smaller Fireview will reach those temperatures on a regular basis. Even today we had the stove top to 640....before we opened a window. It was not as cold outside as I thought. lol

Why you have not been able to get much over 350-375 is a puzzle to me unless your wood is not as dry as it could or should be. That stove should pump out the heat very nicely. Also, the term "well-seasoned" doesn't mean much. What counts is how long was that wood stacked outside in the wind.....after it has been split. Although I have no locust most folks claim it needs a year to dry before burning. If you burn something like oak, it takes even longer!
 
Backwoods Savage said:
qain said:
Had the stove up to 550ish last night. Lots of heat. I have two questions.

1. The middle of the soapstone was 550ish, close to the flue the metal was 650ish. When you measure the top temp, are we looking at highest, middle...don't want to damage anything.

2. I have been unable to get a nice hot cat burn. I have tried some of the methods listed on the forum, but have never seen the top temp get over 375 no matter what with the draft cut back. I have had it to where there is just a tiny lick of flame in the box, no smoke out the pipe, and the top will not rise over 375 no matter how long I wait. I have tried to start it at 250 top temp, and over 300 top temp. The top will rise to about 350-375 and stay there. I have played with the draft anywhere between totally closed, to an inch rotated open. I am burning well seasoned black locust. My draft is great...I am sure it's user error as I have never run a cat stove before.

It seems most folks are reporting high temperatures in the 500-550 range with a few getting higher and a few getting lower. I'd place the thermometer in the center of the stove top. 650 is not going to do any damage either. Even the smaller Fireview will reach those temperatures on a regular basis. Even today we had the stove top to 640....before we opened a window. It was not as cold outside as I thought. lol

Why you have not been able to get much over 350-375 is a puzzle to me unless your wood is not as dry as it could or should be. That stove should pump out the heat very nicely. Also, the term "well-seasoned" doesn't mean much. What counts is how long was that wood stacked outside in the wind.....after it has been split. Although I have no locust most folks claim it needs a year to dry before burning. If you burn something like oak, it takes even longer!

Black Locust can be a bear to get going, you need to give it more time before turning it down or try mixing some other softer wood in with it.
 
You are not the first person to state that Todd. I'm guessing you want a large coal bed for burning that, or as you state, mix some soft wood in with it.
 
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