Thumping sound has developed in vertical loop

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treesforheat

New Member
Oct 25, 2011
18
Eastern TN
Have about 7 weeks on my new installation of a Portage and Main 250 Optimizer furnace. Heating 9000 sq ft plus basement.Love the unit... really something to view the blue hot burn in the bottom!!!!! and absolutly no visable smoke coming out the stack. I ran 60' of logstor 1 1/4" pipe into the house, pump is at furnace, Grundfos cast iron UPS26-99FC 3 speed model. I built an "H" looking header system to be flexable in that I can run some flow thru a filter to keep return temp up, or bypass house all together if needed thru a 1" bypass. First in my loop is a water to air heat exchanger, then on to a sidearm heat exchanger on a hot water heater, then on to where I have another identical furnace in the attic to feed another water to air heat exchanger, after this furnace water passes back down to basement where I turn and go to return side of my "H" loop to return to furnace. this is all 1" Pex inside. I have developed what is best described as a "thumping sound" that comes every 12 -15 seconds from the down pipe on the return side of this attic furance. It is 30-32' vertical rise to this unit in piping system. I know it's from air or to me seems like my pump can't shove enough around fast enough to keep air out. System is "open" at stove to atmospere. I removed the check valve from pump... thought it would restrict flow.... I have tried a pump that pumps 125' of head to try and bleed any entraped air out of pipes/heat exchanger but to no avail. Anyone have an idea of what causes this and how to resolve getting rid of it? Thanks for any help. Been a pretty mild winter but have had a few cold weeks so far... oh... 128-132 deg F out of registers, and 165 deg F on hot water. Run furnace between 180-185 to keep desolved O2 out of system, PH 9.6 East Tennessee.
 
Could be flash boiling, while pumping you create positive or increased pressure on the downstream side of the pump. Now that you pumped the water up 30' it has to come down. when the pump shuts off it just stops flow instantly, while the water is still falling on the down pipe, it will create negative pressure in that zone. At 30' I think it equates to P static= -(.433x30)= -12.99 psi, at which water boils at 142* approximately. To verify this plumb in a pressure gauge at the high point in the system and monitor. Unfortunately I think the only way to resolve this is to pressurize the house portion and use a HX. you do have to resolve boiling immediately.
 
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quite possible... It worked for 5 weeks without a sound.. pump runs continuously. It all started when I turned the pump to low, had designed to run on med, ran on high for a couple weeks and was playing with system... think the long haul up was a strain on low but I thought when a system was "solid" what comes down helps pull up on the up side.. your theory makes sense. I'll try to lower overall temp down to 175-180 and see if thumping changes times per minute. I like an idiot put an automatic air bleed up there thinking that would let out any air...wrong... only let in more and system got air blocked completely... capped little bleed off tight and hooked up big pump into system and pumped air out. I'm thinking maybe my big pump I hook into my "H" header and valve in has developed seal leakage and may be putting air into the system somehow? I'll pick up another pump capable of exceeding that highth and good flow and see if that helps if lowering temp in stove does not. thanks.
 
If someone here that has the Caleffi January edition magazine , it covers just wood boilers and it specifically has this exact problem discussed in it. I just opened it up today when it came in the mail. There are some very good piping designs and explanations of 10 or more possible designs and applications. The air vent was also mentioned being a problem at the top of the circuit. I don't think lowering the temp will do unless you go lower than the vapor pressure created from the 30' of static head in the circuit. According to the chart that was 142*. This was the only link I could find to the info source, I believe someone else posted this link here in another thread.

http://www.caleffi.us/caleffi/en_US...gazine_detail_0000108/type/magazine/index.sdo
 
Thanks...I'll ck that out! Temperature drop has lengthed the thumps and greatly reduced the "impact" of the problem ... not as severe now. The auto air vent, (remember this is open system at stove) only let in lots of air to the point it dried the pipe from the top over on the down side and eventially I wasn't getting flow for about an hour...only pumping dead headed. Thumps are spaced about 30-45 seconds apart and are light in impact nature now.... only change was dropping temp range from 180=185 cycles to 170-175... still wanting to run the higher numbers. Will a pump at the bottom of the loop going up help? ck valve or no ck valve???
 
Please goto that link, - view list of idronics - select the wood boiler one, and read the section specifically pictured and explaining your scenario. I believe page 10-12. Pump location and checks will not solve the problem of sub atmospheric pressure within the piping circuit. good luck
 
Pressure drop at the inlet of a circ will allow suction boiling also and that can sound like anything from gravel in your pump to the thumping you describe. The higher the temp, the more likely it is to occur. Best to run at a reduced temp if possible in an unpressurized system. I've never heard of running a system temp high to eliminate or reduce dissolved O2 but maybe there is something to it.

Also, it's amazing how sound travels through water. You may be hearing a noise in one location that is being generated in a completely different area of the system. Been there done that.........course' I'm deaf in one ear and can't hear out of the other one.....=
 
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