Question About Fireview Cat - No Dogs Allowed

4wheelcycle · Mar 11, 2012

OK, I need some comments from people more experienced than me with the Fireview cat.

There are really two questions here - one about the cat and one about creosote. I'm most interested in cat comments, but creosote insight is welcomed also!

This morning I fired up my four month old Fireview. Soon after I cut in the cat I noticed a dark drip stain on the back side of the stove, running all the way down the back from the bottom edge of the damper assembly. I thought the stain might be from some type of gasket cement that had melted, but when I went to rub-out the streak with 00 steel wool I found that it was still wet, especially right below the damper assembly, and it was actually watery brown creosote. So then I got an old cotton towel from my workshop and mopped up the wet creosote.

While doing this, unbeknownst to me, I jostled the flat sliding damper plate and got it kitty-corner in its slide, with the result that even though I had the front edge of the damper plate shut down to about 1.1 there was actually a good-sized triangular air space near the back end of the plate. So the damper was effectively open to 2 or more.

Not knowing the damper was really open further than I thought, I walked away from the stove and did not notice I had a pretty good burn going until some time later. When it is not too cold outdoors (26 F this morning) I usually set the damper for low blue and orange flames, with the stove top temp around 350 to 400. When I came back into the room I realized I had bright yellow flames going and the stove top was up to about 500. When I saw the damper was still apparently set for 1.1 I looked closer and realized the back edge of the damper was letting in a lot more air.

After I got the damper back in place using leather gloves I set the damper way down to about .5 to let the stove cool down. The stove wasn't over heated, but my family room was! I left the room again and when I came back I realized I had set the damper too low and now I had no flames at all.

Here comes the first question: To my surprise, with no visible flames at all my cat was in full glow. Normally, I only get a full glow on my cat after I first cut it in, when I have bright yellow flames licking up toward the air scoop screen. In the past, the cat has always become dark after I set the damper for low blue and orange flames. Based on what I saw today, I'm wondering if the cat was in full glow because the were NO flames to burn off any of the wood gasses, with the result that the cat was in full glow because it was doing all the gas burning work that would normally be done by the low blue and orange flames.

In fact, within a few minutes after I adjusted the damper to re-establish low blue and orange flames the cat stopped glowing.

I'd really appreciate comments from the veterans out there about what I observed today.

On the creosote question, I have burned wood stoves for thirty years and I am certainly aware creosote can take the form of a watery brown flow leaking from incorrectly-assembled flue pipes (don't ask me how I know this!). However, I have never seen a stove leak watery creosote from around the cast iron assembly parts of the stove itself. I realize the damper assembly on the Fireview is right in the area of the exhaust outlet, and thus right below the inlet to the flue pipe, but I have looked at the first six inches of my flue pipe on several occasions (when the stove was out and cool) and I have never seen any evidence of wet creosote, or even evidence of wet creosote that had dried out to a brown glaze. All I have seen is a very thin dusting of fine brown powder on the inside of the flue pipe.

Creosote comments appreciated also!

tcassavaugh · Mar 11, 2012

i'm not familiar with your stove model and i've never had a cat where i could view it and tell if it was a-glow. however, i had a vc with a cat thermometer on the plate on top that monitored the cat temp. some of the best burns i've had have been pretty much few flames after the cat ignited. i'd wait until the cat caught and i'd open the draft control to the cat while reducing the one on the stove. result was a lot of smoke burned off by the cat. i think the fire view is secondary. small fires maintained after the ignition normally worked best for me. as far as your creasote, not sure where it would be coming from as like i said earlier, i'm not familiar with the model. you've obviously already learned your pipe connection lesson...some folks don't, so thats not the problem. i had some water seepage at my thimbal that would come down the exterior of the pipe sometimes during a hard rain. fixed that. as long as everything is tight, not sure why you're getting the creasote....

cass

Backwoods Savage · Mar 12, 2012

Interesting 4wheelcycle.

First on the creosote. You will find with the new stoves you really need to be more careful with drying your wood else you will get more creosote. What kind of wood were you burning and how long since it had been split?

The damper is an easy fix and sometimes folks have found they have jumped off the track during shipment. That could cause some confusion I'm sure. But now about the stove temperature and draft setting. A stove top temperature of 350-400 is really low. 500 is just getting warmed up nicely. Most fires we get the stove over 600. At present, my wife got cold so we started the stove. There is one small round (3") of soft maple and one split of white ash. The stove top temperature is 500. So you are not burning hot for sure. Perhaps this is one of the causes of the creosote because at 400 degree stove top the flue temperature is no doubt below 300. But I'm really wondering why you would want to cool the stove down when it is only 500 degrees?

Your first question about the cat glowing and no fire in the firebox. You are correct. It is very common to have no flame but the cat glowing really red and the cat is burning off the smoke and gasses. That is the cat's job and it seems to work really nice. I'm glad this is working for you. To go further, with no flame but the cat glowing, we can get our stove top to 700 quite easily. However, if you keep some flame in the firebox then the stove top temperature will not be as high. This can be shown with the use of an IR temp gun and it is fascinating to see the differences in different areas of the stove. When it gets really cold outside, we then try to keep a good flame in the firebox and then the stove top rarely goes above 600, but, we get more heat. This winter? Not so. In fact, we rarely even filled the firebox! Just did not need that much heat.

On the draft. You stated you closed the draft to about .5. Many times you will find that can be counter productive! To give an example, one time my wife (who forgets easier than I do) was found sitting next to the stove working the bypass handle. I looked and the stove top was above 700. She would open the bypass for a bit (which helps cool) but could not get the temperature to stay down. Then I found the draft set at zero. Ah ha! There is the problem. I told her to open the draft to 1.5 and she gave me one of those looks that said I was crazy. But we opened the draft and the stove top got down well below 700 in very short order.

It is also very common to not see red in the cat but you can tell by the stove top temperature that it is working. I would highly suggest you call Woodstock and get another thermometer to place on the flue. Having the two really helps you in knowing what that stove is doing. For example, we found that many times you could engage the cat with the stove temperature at the right spot but then we found that many times the flue temperature had not gone up. It is best to wait for the flue to reach 400 minimum before engaging. Also, as the cat gets some time on it, you might find that you have to get the flue hotter, 450 or 500 to get good cat action.

4wheelcycle · Mar 12, 2012

Backwoods Savage -

Thanks for all your suggestions! The wood has been cut and drying under cover in my yard for two years, and this batch had been split and stacked next to my stove for about a week, so it should have been pretty dry.

The only time I have previously had watery creosote formation, back in the early 1980's with a VC Defiant, was when I (foolishly) kept a kettle of water on the stove top in an effort to increase the humidity in my house during the dry winter months. What I really did was create high humidity in the area of the stove, which was immediately drawn into the stove's air intake, causing lots of watery creosote in my flue!

You may well be right that this particular wood was damp, since it is possible I had one piece that was exposed to rain or snow melt along the edge of the plywood I use to cover my stacked wood. I did not notice any damp pieces, but it's certainly possible there was one. Another reason I can imagine, but only a supposition, is that since the cat creates water vapor as a byproduct of its combustion the water vapor may be condensing along the bottom edge of the damper assembly early in the burn cycle when the soapstone back of the stove is still cool even though the top and the other three sides are too hot to touch. Have you noticed this with your stove? On mine it takes a lot longer for the back to heat up.

This is my first winter with the Fireview and it has been a very warm winter in NH. Most often it seems I am burning the stove when it is only 24 - 30 F outside. At these relatively warm temperatures I only need to keep the stove top in the 350 - 400 F range to keep my family room and nearby open areas warm (900 sf). When it's zero outside I do keep the stove top in the 500+ range.

With the new Fireview I have lots of thermometers - the stove top thermometer that came with the stove, an 8" cat probe I bought at Woodstock Soapstone (I live right near them), and a good IR thermometer for the flue and any other part of the stove I want to measure. As I have noted in other posts, I get the flue 18" above the stove up to 375 - 390 for ten minutes before I cut in the cat, then after the cat gets up to a full glow I adjust the damper down to get blue and orange flames, if it's only in the 20s outside. Twenty minutes after the damper has been adjusted down to 1.1 or 1.2 the flue has dropped to 250 or so, but the cat probe is still above 700 and the stove top is at 350 - 400.

Backwoods Savage · Mar 12, 2012

4wheel, where you are making the mistake shows in that first paragraph. "...this batch had been split and stacked next to my stove for about a week, so it should have been pretty dry." Get that wood split and let Mother Nature do the drying for you. Depending upon what type of wood you have, it will need from a year to perhaps 3 years to dry and just splitting it and stacking next to the stove only drys the very outside of the wood. That is the reason for creosote.

I also do not see how keeping a kettle of water on the stove is foolish. It is necessary! Furthermore, you will not put enough humidity in that room to make any difference at all in the wood nor in the air that enters the stove. It just will not happen. In addition, that cat will not create water vapor. The first thing that happens when you put wood into the stove is to evaporate the moisture that is in the wood. This is done by the fire and not the cat. Having too much moisture can and will ruin the cat !!!

!! To answer your question, no. We have never had creosote in our stove.

You can do yourself the biggest favor by getting your wood split ASAP. Stack it where it gets wind. Cover the top only. Now just wait and let Mother Nature work for you. The burning practices that you are using are old school and are not best for these newer stoves. As far as that goes, they were not the best practices even 50 year ago. It is still better to get 2-3 years ahead on your wood supply and that means getting it cut to length, split and stacked out in the wind. If you do this you will be amazed at the difference it makes for burning. We typically let our wood dry for 3-7 years before burning it. This winter we burned wood that was cut during the winter 2008-2009. It was all split and stacked in early April 2009. Previously we'd been burning wood that was in the stack for 6-8 years and yes, we notice the difference. The older wood burns much better and I think I stated that we rarely have to clean our chimney. I believe only once in 5 years and we get no creosote from it. Dry wood will not only burn better and not give you creosote but you will also use less wood to get the heat required to heat your home.

Good luck.

Stump_Branch · Mar 13, 2012

R4wheel, that beat red cat is something to shoot for in these mild temps. Makes a load last very long. You may have to open up at the end but i find it a pretty burn. Wife hit it on the nose last night, i was proud as even i will struggle with it.

Your watery creosote sounds almost like a leak in the cap or similar spot. Can you run through your chimney setup?

Burning correctly, you should only get some powder. In four months next to nothing.

Good luck

Woody Stover · Mar 13, 2012

Backwoods Savage said:
in that first paragraph. "...this batch had been split and stacked next to my stove for about a week, so it should have been pretty dry." Get that wood split and let Mother Nature do the drying for you.

Same thought that occurred to me as I read that paragraph; If your wood is sitting in round form and is only split shortly before burning it, there's a good chance that the wood isn't dry enough. When you put some new wood on a big coal bed and then open the door after it starts to burn, do you hear hissing and see moisture spots on the ends of the splits? Worse yet, is water bubbling out the end of the splits? Yes, the cat can be working even when it's not glowing, but I think excess moisture can stall the cat. Do you go out and look at your flue once the cat is engaged, and is there a lot of smoke or is it burning clean? If your cat isn't burning the smoke, and the smoke is wet, you'll get a lot of condensation in the flue pipe and it will run down inside the pipe, even though you may see nothing on the outside of the pipe...

Stump_Branch said:
Your watery creosote sounds almost like a leak in the cap or similar spot. Can you run through your chimney setup?

This is a possibility as well; If water is getting inside of the pipe at the top, it could come all the way down to the stove. Yes, more details are needed about your chimney setup...

4wheelcycle · Mar 13, 2012

All good comments! But I don't think I had any wood that wet and my chimney and cap are brand new.

I do let my wood dry for two or more years, round, stacked and covered, before I burn it. I find it splits (by hand in my case) much more easily when it is dry. To spread out the splitting work I split new wood each time I fill up my wood box next to the stove. I have encountered one-year-old wood in the past that was so fresh I could see water/sap bubbling from the ends, but that was only few times over thirty years and not with my new Fireview. When it happened I (1) switched to older wood if I could and (2) stacked the "new" wood on top of my Jotul 118 for one or two burn cycles to drive the moisture out of it. Of course, I couldn't stack the wood right on top of the stove or it would start smoking! So I stacked several 10 lb. weight lifting weights on top of the stove and stacked the wood on top of the weights to dry out. Fortunately, no fire marshals dropped by my house during this exercise. With the new Fireview I am only burning very dry wood - I don't want to scratch up the new soapstone with weight lifting weights!

I also used to start fires in the 118 with a little high-grade (clear) kerosene sprayed onto the wood. With the Fireview I have switched to 1/4 Super Cedar sections. Has anyone heard of the wax from Super Cedar sections causing drips from stove assemblies?

My three flue chimney and cap are brand new - it's a good story.

We built our house in 1977 with a cement block chimney, three tile flues, and brick veneer above the roof line. In the early 1980's I had a chimney fire in the flue above our living room VC Defiant (due to naive burning practices that included low, smokey fires and lots of fluffy creosote in the tile flue). The chimney fire cracked some tiles in the flue and I subsequently stopped using that stove (I also found it pretty messy to carry wood into my living room, so I was happy to stop using the stove).

The next winter I switched over to a Jotul 118 connected to the flue in our family room, directly beneath our living room, with an open stairway leading to the upstairs. I always burned the Jotul at high to medium heat and, as others have noted, I could go years without having to clean my chimney flue.

I always knew I would have to re-line the living room flue someday, but I put it off since I wasn't using the stove and I also did not want the look of a stainless steel exhaust cap on my brick chimney. I never treated the brick veneer on my chimney because I did not know about ChimneySaver, and over the years some of the bricks started to spall and become punky. Some of the mortar lines also began to deteriorate, so last summer I finally bit the bullet and got bids on what I thought would be a single flue relining and a tuck and point job on the brick veneer.

I had three chimney contractors look at the chimney and they all agreed (1) the whole brick veneer needed to be torn off to the roof line and rebuilt, (2) the flue above my oil furnace needed to be relined in addition to the living room flue because although there were no cracked tiles thirty-four years of mild sulfuric acid from my No. 2 heating oil had caused the mortar between the tiles to deteriorate, and (3) it was possible the spinning router they would use to break up and remove the center flue would damage the adjacent furnace and family room flues, so I might want to budget for relining all three flues. The chimney contractors also suggested I might be able to make a home insurance claim on the chimney fire damage, even though the fire happened thirty years ago.

We've had the same home insurance company ever since we built the house and, amazingly, they ultimate;y agreed to cover two-third of the cost for the entire job - a complete rebuild of the chimney veneer from the roof up, and three relined flues. On my own nickel I also bought a beautiful Whitecaps stainless steel hip & ridge chimney cap, so I don't have any typical relined flue exhaust caps. The contractor I used also coated the finished chimney and cement cap with ChimneySaver.

Bottom line, I'm certain I don't have any water leaking into my flue from the chimney cap. Also, when I look into the flue pipe above my Fireview there is only a fine dusting of brown powder, with no major creosote build-up or any watery mess.

weatherguy · Mar 13, 2012

I do let my wood dry for two or more years, round, stacked and covered, before I burn it. I find it splits (by hand in my case) much more easily when it is dry. To spread out the splitting work I split new wood each time I fill up my wood box next to the stove.

This sounds like it may be the problem, the wood doesnt dry until its split, I let my wood dry for two years after its split. If you have a moisture meter you can split a round and check it but I suspect your wood still has some moisture.

Backwoods Savage · Mar 13, 2012

4wheelcycle said:
All good comments! But I don't think I had any wood that wet and my chimney and cap are brand new.

I do let my wood dry for two or more years, round, stacked and covered, before I burn it. I find it splits (by hand in my case) much more easily when it is dry. To spread out the splitting work I split new wood each time I fill up my wood box next to the stove. I have encountered one-year-old wood in the past that was so fresh I could see water/sap bubbling from the ends, but that was only few times over thirty years and not with my new Fireview. When it happened I (1) switched to older wood if I could and (2) stacked the "new" wood on top of my Jotul 118 for one or two burn cycles to drive the moisture out of it. Of course, I couldn't stack the wood right on top of the stove or it would start smoking! So I stacked several 10 lb. weight lifting weights on top of the stove and stacked the wood on top of the weights to dry out. Fortunately, no fire marshals dropped by my house during this exercise. With the new Fireview I am only burning very dry wood - I don't want to scratch up the new soapstone with weight lifting weights!

I also used to start fires in the 118 with a little high-grade (clear) kerosene sprayed onto the wood.[/b] With the Fireview I have switched to 1/4 Super Cedar sections. Has anyone heard of the wax from Super Cedar sections causing drips from stove assemblies?

My three flue chimney and cap are brand new - it's a good story.

We built our house in 1977 with a cement block chimney, three tile flues, and brick veneer above the roof line. In the early 1980's I had a chimney fire in the flue above our living room VC Defiant (due to naive burning practices that included low, smokey fires and lots of fluffy creosote in the tile flue). The chimney fire cracked some tiles in the flue and I subsequently stopped using that stove (I also found it pretty messy to carry wood into my living room, so I was happy to stop using the stove).

The next winter I switched over to a Jotul 118 connected to the flue in our family room, directly beneath our living room, with an open stairway leading to the upstairs. I always burned the Jotul at high to medium heat and, as others have noted, I could go years without having to clean my chimney flue.

I always knew I would have to re-line the living room flue someday, but I put it off since I wasn't using the stove and I also did not want the look of a stainless steel exhaust cap on my brick chimney. I never treated the brick veneer on my chimney because I did not know about ChimneySaver, and over the years some of the bricks started to spall and become punky. Some of the mortar lines also began to deteriorate, so last summer I finally bit the bullet and got bids on what I thought would be a single flue relining and a tuck and point job on the brick veneer.

I had three chimney contractors look at the chimney and they all agreed (1) the whole brick veneer needed to be torn off to the roof line and rebuilt, (2) the flue above my oil furnace needed to be relined in addition to the living room flue because although there were no cracked tiles thirty-four years of mild sulfuric acid from my No. 2 heating oil had caused the mortar between the tiles to deteriorate, and (3) it was possible the spinning router they would use to break up and remove the center flue would damage the adjacent furnace and family room flues, so I might want to budget for relining all three flues. The chimney contractors also suggested I might be able to make a home insurance claim on the chimney fire damage, even though the fire happened thirty years ago.

We've had the same home insurance company ever since we built the house and, amazingly, they ultimate;y agreed to cover two-third of the cost for the entire job - a complete rebuild of the chimney veneer from the roof up, and three relined flues. On my own nickel I also bought a beautiful Whitecaps stainless steel hip & ridge chimney cap, so I don't have any typical relined flue exhaust caps. The contractor I used also coated the finished chimney and cement cap with ChimneySaver.

Bottom line, I'm certain I don't have any water leaking into my flue from the chimney cap. Also, when I look into the flue pipe above my Fireview there is only a fine dusting of brown powder, with no major creosote build-up or any watery mess.

Those lines in red speak volumes.

No, nobody has ever reported any problems with super cedars.

Once again I would suggest you change the way you handle your wood. It needs to be split right after cutting it and I've always found it splits easier then. It also needs to be stacked, off the ground and if covered, cover the top only. If you do this and stay 2-3 years ahead on your wood, the problems will disappear. Here is how we stack and cover our wood.

4wheelcycle · Mar 14, 2012

Backwoods Savage -

That is a VERY impressive wood yard!

And yes, starting with this year's wood I will consider renting a wood splitter and splitting it all at once so it can dry split and stacked.

Backwoods Savage · Mar 14, 2012

Thank you. That is just a small part of our wood piles and part of that is now missing. We have enough of that yet for next winter plus part of the following before we break into the next one. Our wood pile shrunk a bit last week when some went to a local sugar bush as they needed wood for boiling. That's okay, we have plenty.

You really will notice a big difference when you get it split right away so it has good time to dry. I always state 2-3 years ahead is ideal and the reason for that is that your wood will then have time to dry right and should unforeseen unfortunate thing happen to you, there will still be plenty of wood to burn without having to have others come in to help. We saw this happen to a few members this year and they really do feel fortunate that they were ahead on their wood. Good luck.

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Question About Fireview Cat - No Dogs Allowed

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