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wkpoor

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2008
1,854
Amanda, OH
Wow, this was me last year and others too that had this problem.
Anyone who heats with wood can see an immediate problem with that, considering that if you were to fill up a firebox and set the air control to burn at a rate of one and three-quarters pounds an hour, the fire would smolder or go out, regardless of how good the combustion system was. One of the ways stove manufacturers tap danced around that problem was by letting the stove leak by using a fixed minimum air supply. The rules say that if a stove just won’t burn as low as the minimum burn rate, then it must complete two runs at the next higher burn rate. This strategy works fine in lab testing and lets stoves pass the tests, but it allows stoves to over-fire when they are connected to good tall chimneys, especially in cold climates. This problem is described in detail in a report written few years ago called the Florida Bungalow Syndrome.
 
john's article does make sense,and the arguement he makes has merit, in order to accomodate the vast variances in chimney dynamics stove manufacturers could practically have to "customize" each stove for the flue it was to be vented into as well as do so based on geography as well. or limit where a model might be sold or the type of flue it were to be installed in. facing the fact that not all houses are built the same, chimneys also differ both in their own performance as well as due to variences integral to the structure they are a part of, even prevailing wind direction and average strength can play a part. in allowing for a "high stack" and it inherantly more powerful draw the stove could be unusable in a "short stack" application, and inducing draft has its own drawbacks just as restricting does.
one of the most sought after "selling points" is "GPH"(grams per hour in particulate matter) ratings. cleaner burning stoves are generally more desired by stove buyers than stoves which while they may meet standards have a higher GPH rating. granted, burn times, BTU outputs, and features like ash drawers, mobile home compatability, and close clearances to combustibles are among the biggest "selling points"
I suppose in a perfect world, the EPA would partner with manufacturers, environmentalists, and actually welcome folks with inherant knowlege in the subject , folks like John, who truly is a very smart dude IMHO though i have disagreed with him on occasion in the past im smart enough to recognize smart when i read it. maybe work toward some flexability in the design of stoves to allow the variety of chimneys that we all know exist out there to be optimized at the installer level for the type and length of flue to be used. manufacturers are bound by the standards we must build to, they aint that flexable when you look at it from the manufacturers point of view. and any modifications built into the stove must pass teh same standard battery that the "stock" setup must pass, there isnt any flexability built into the test standards.
Doing what i do for a living i end up "walking point" so to speak on real world issues concerning difficulties with my stoves (as my counterparts in the industry do with theirs) i spend a ton of my own time educating myself so i can better help the folks who call my help line (including reading everything i can find that John has published online, like i said, he's a smart dude). in my experience with our units the ratio of "i cant slow it down" versus "my stove wont draw" is heavily slanted towards the latter. this is twofold, one , many folks do not educate themselves on the "total package" stove and flue, the structure etc... they see a chimney and expect that it will do what a chimney is supposed to do when you hook up a stove to it regardless of its size length or other conditions. so when they cannot get it to pull hard enough they get the smoke spillage and slow starting or simply cant get it to burn as it should. OTOH those who have overdraft conditions possibly dont even know they have it as the stove burns the wood down to ash (quickly) , smoke spillage isnt an issue so they keep stuffing wood in and wonder why their neighbor's woodpile aint shrinking as fast as theirs does, many end up going through a few stoves before finaly finding out its the chimney. needless to say, a clean burning stove even if its running a bit fast doesnt raise the consternation of a user nearly to the level of the opposite problem, so, i get the "no draw" call far more than the 'overdraw' one.
folks , it really simple when you look at it, a stove in essence is a box which holds the fire. the chimney is the engine which makes it run. the more "horsepower" the engine has the faster it can go. this "horsepower" is generated by 4 things; flue height/length, air temperature differential in flue compared to outside ambient temperature, amount of air allowed into the stove by design, and the amount of restriction to air allowed into the structure itself.
 
I wrote quite a few posts and threads in complaint. Most of those could have been explained with overdraft. Not having used a stove on any other chimney how was I to know my situation was any different from anyone elses until recently I begun to put 2 and 2 together. I'm 41' from stove top to cap. I can under any circumstance rip the door off its hinges and never get smoke spillage. Not even with a solid plate damper fully closed and the primary fully closed (which on the Elm really is fully closed). The bungalow syndrome explains precisely what was going on with my Magnolia and in hind site I would have taken the time to mod the primary plate to fully shut off.
 
A 41ft chimney is quite unusual. The strong draft created by this tall chimney is going to present problems for most any stove.
 
I was under the assumption that around 33ft. was the break even point, after that you begin loosing draft. I'm unsure what the height is for 8"; maybe the OP has an 8" pipe at 41ft. All I know is I would hire a professional sweep to do that.
 
BeGreen said:
A 41ft chimney is quite unusual. The strong draft created by this tall chimney is going to present problems for most any stove.
Yes but its less of a problem with a stove that allows full control over the primary air which is probably all Pre EPA stoves and the Elm. I added a damper a few months ago and I have it full closed almost 100% of the time. In fact on very cold days I run with the damper and primary full closed. Even though the primary can be fully shut down there is a whisper of a leak around the plate which seems to plenty enough to keep a hot fire going. On windy days I could use a second damper. Might install another one yet.
 
I stand by my statement. It is an issue for any stove.
 
RNLA said:
I was under the assumption that around 33ft. was the break even point, after that you begin loosing draft. I'm unsure what the height is for 8"; maybe the OP has an 8" pipe at 41ft. All I know is I would hire a professional sweep to do that.
I do it from the bottom up in the basement. I've had one sweep here in the last 17yrs and he didn't bring long enough ladder. 35' is all he had. I since have bought a 40'. But every so often I rent a lift to go up and really inspect things good and do a little maintenance. I'll admit I get a little queezy at the top of a 40 footer fully stretched out. That chimney has one 6" class A and one 8" air cooled. Since flue temps are always on the cool side I'm going to give the 2nd Elm a try upstairs on the 8". As for loosing draft wood heat doesn't say that and even if I am its still serious draft. But I didn't know it was an abnormal situation until of late. But I have read on here about smoke spillage and the need to open the vent before opening door and never understood why that was necessary since every stove I ever burned you could open the door under any circumstance and never see smoke. I mentioned recently my house is located on a knoll in a field near the highest point in the county which puts the chimney way above any surrounding features. When I'm up there I can see all the way to Columbus 35mi north.
 
stoveguy2esw said:
in my experience with our units the ratio of "i cant slow it down" versus "my stove wont draw" is heavily slanted towards the latter. this is twofold, one , many folks do not educate themselves on the "total package" stove and flue, the structure etc... they see a chimney and expect that it will do what a chimney is supposed to do when you hook up a stove to it regardless of its size length or other conditions.

My experience is the same. I get WAY more calls from folks with less-than-adequate draft. The average chimney around here is about 25 feet and while that's taller than the lab chimneys used during testing, these 25 foot chimneys are usually masonry which means they run colder and contain defects such as cracks and gaps between the tiles plus (very) leaky clean out areas, all of which reduce draft significantly.
 
I will be criticised for sure, and I understand why the air cannot be shut off entirely on an EPA stove, but I think that it should be. Even with the less than total shut off, most stoves can be run to low. The user, wood, set up, is all such a large part of the equation. Complete control is a safety issue and should be allowed. IMHO.
 
tfdchief said:
I will be criticised for sure, and I understand why the air cannot be shut off entirely on an EPA stove, but I think that it should be. Even with the less than total shut off, most stoves can be run to low. The user, wood, set up, is all such a large part of the equation. Complete control is a safety issue and should be allowed. IMHO.
When I first discovered EPA stoves won't allow full shut down I too was shocked. Seems like a safety hazard to me too. So here I am heating with an unlisted un rated stove but at least it can be shut down and in most situations outside of mine it would starve the fire of enough air to stop the burning or at least seriously slow it down. On top of that its virtually indestructible to overfire. But hey EPA/gooovernment knows best right. Silly me
 
My basement stove is 46 ft down from the top of my chimney, the main floor around 34 ft, I've never noticed a problem with either stove. Of course early on I installed a damper in the basement stove pipe, but only because I thought all the heat must be going up the chimney...? Then...I insulated the basement, old stove works just fine now. :red:
 
This ain't new news. Talked about here every year and in six threads since November. Specifically referencing John's article. Just like fuel/air adjustment on EPA certified engines some people/shops do it, some don't. The ones that do don't go talking about it much. And as far as modifying stoves go, many here have tried it and then went back to "stock" based on their results.

If you have a problem. Fix it. But don't go fixing one you don't have yet.
 
EPA has just about ruined hand held power equipment. I have a pretty nice 4 cycle Dolmar blower (4cycle cause 2cycle pollutes ya know). Nice until it gets down to 20degrees out. Won't start for nothing. Let it warm a few mins inside and it fires right up but doesn't like full throttle in the cold air. Thankyou EPA. It runs so lean you can't use it in the winter.
They are taking aim on aviation but there is one slight problem so far. When those engines quit people die.
Just like fuel/air adjustment on EPA certified engines some people/shops do it, some don’t.
 
BrotherBart said:
This ain't new news. Talked about here every year and in six threads since November. Specifically referencing John's article. Just like fuel/air adjustment on EPA certified engines some people/shops do it, some don't. The ones that do don't go talking about it much. And as far as modifying stoves go, many here have tried it and then went back to "stock" based on their results.

If you have a problem. Fix it. But don't go fixing one you don't have yet.
I am not sure I understand this. I don't have a problem, yet, and would not want to modify my stove if I did. That was my point, you shouldn't have to modify it. On that -20 °F night when the wind is blowing 35 mph, you stuffed it to the gills, and you find out the result, for the first time, it would be nice to be able to just close the air all the way.
 
I found this column a couple years ago, and completely agree as it applies to my situation. I have closed up, or allowed my stove to close further the controls for the air, mainly the primary and doghouse
 
tfdchief said:
BrotherBart said:
This ain't new news. Talked about here every year and in six threads since November. Specifically referencing John's article. Just like fuel/air adjustment on EPA certified engines some people/shops do it, some don't. The ones that do don't go talking about it much. And as far as modifying stoves go, many here have tried it and then went back to "stock" based on their results.

If you have a problem. Fix it. But don't go fixing one you don't have yet.
I am not sure I understand this. I don't have a problem, yet, and would not want to modify my stove if I did. That was my point, you shouldn't have to modify it. On that -20 °F night when the wind is blowing 35 mph, you stuffed it to the gills, and you find out the result, for the first time, it would be nice to be able to just close the air all the way.

I hear ya Chief. But the fact is that stoves were made for a lot of years that could be shut all the way down. So most people did. And we saw how that worked out. Guys like you, and me before I bought new stoves, figured out that smoldering a fire does not make sense on a lot of levels. But hundreds of thousands of people didn't, and don't, so the answer is stoves that still burn when damped down. The alternative most likely would have been to outlaw wood burning. Not a good solution.

Not fixing a problem you don't have alludes to modding a stove before determining if it is needed. Just like not adding a creosote collecting pipe damper before you know you need it. Which I believe is never. It is putting the band aid in the wrong place. Sorry I wasn't clearer on that. I make no bones about the fact that I modified my 30-NC years ago to more closely match the conditions it was designed for. Those being the ones under which EPA testing is done. But some people send me requests on how to do it before their stove is even delivered.
 
one reason as well is to prevent what we call precombustion, sealing off a hot firebox deprives oxygen, sismlar to a room in a housefire, theres a boatload of smoke, a lot of heat,but no fire, open the door and whoosh, the unspent volitile fuel that is making up this smoke ignites as oxygen gets to it through the opened door. woodstoves can generate this syndrome in certain circumstances if the stove is quite hot and oxygen is denied the fire, the chimeny stalls and if the stove is not allowed to adequately cool down before oxygen is reintroduced the built up fuel can ignite, in some cases violently.
 
I agree with all of this. I just hate it when I have to be the brunt of the government trying to fix "stupid" :-S Oh, and BB, I lied. I did modify my stove. I put in a pipe damper and even though I have a short stack, I have to use it occasionally,
 
stoveguy2esw said:
one reason as well is to prevent what we call precombustion, sealing off a hot firebox deprives oxygen, sismlar to a room in a housefire, theres a boatload of smoke, a lot of heat,but no fire, open the door and whoosh, the unspent volitile fuel that is making up this smoke ignites as oxygen gets to it through the opened door. woodstoves can generate this syndrome in certain circumstances if the stove is quite hot and oxygen is denied the fire, the chimeny stalls and if the stove is not allowed to adequately cool down before oxygen is reintroduced the built up fuel can ignite, in some cases violently.

I think I saw that in a movie once.
 
Just like not adding a creosote collecting pipe damper before you know you need it.
I guess since I started this one I can steer it around a bit. Not sure I understand why adding a damper increases creosote. I have cleaned and or inspected my chimney 3 xs this winter and the damper changed nothing in respect to buildup in the chimney. Nor did it change the pipe temps measured in the exact same place before and after plate install. Only thing I see it did was slow the exhaust gas velocity making it easier to regulate the fire especially on windy days.
 
cmonSTART said:
stoveguy2esw said:
one reason as well is to prevent what we call precombustion, sealing off a hot firebox deprives oxygen, sismlar to a room in a housefire, theres a boatload of smoke, a lot of heat,but no fire, open the door and whoosh, the unspent volitile fuel that is making up this smoke ignites as oxygen gets to it through the opened door. woodstoves can generate this syndrome in certain circumstances if the stove is quite hot and oxygen is denied the fire, the chimeny stalls and if the stove is not allowed to adequately cool down before oxygen is reintroduced the built up fuel can ignite, in some cases violently.

I think I saw that in a movie once.
BACKDRAFT :ahhh:
 
BeGreen said:
A 41ft chimney is quite unusual. The strong draft created by this tall chimney is going to present problems for most any stove.

You aren't kidding! Hell you could hook up a hose to that stack and use it as a vacuum cleaner.. I bet you could suck the farts out of a dead seagull with a setup like that! :)

Ray
 
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