Hydrogen isn't an energy source, as it doesn't occur in available, combustible form in any location unless it is deliberately refined or concentrated by human intervention, which takes energy that has to come from some other energy source (electrical energy or chemical energy). So it's far from a "limitless source" and much more like a battery-- you take energy from something else to refine the hydrogen, which you can then have to use as fuel for an engine, turbine, or fuel cell. Trouble is: the same unavoidable principle of entropy mentioned above enters in here, too- every conversion of energy from one form or state to another introduces inevitable and substantial losses. So unless you really need, on a near-unavoidable basis, to convert energy from one form to another to move it to a different location, or to save it for a later time (like photovoltaic power you may actually want to use at midnight), every conversion is a losing proposition
electrical generation hybrid boiler
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Hydrogen isn't an energy source, as it doesn't occur in available, combustible form in any location unless it is deliberately refined or concentrated by human intervention, which takes energy that has to come from some other energy source (electrical energy or chemical energy). So it's far from a "limitless source" and much more like a battery-- you take energy from something else to refine the hydrogen, which you can then have to use as fuel for an engine, turbine, or fuel cell. Trouble is: the same unavoidable principle of entropy mentioned above enters in here, too- every conversion of energy from one form or state to another introduces inevitable and substantial losses. So unless you really need, on a near-unavoidable basis, to convert energy from one form to another to move it to a different location, or to save it for a later time (like photovoltaic power you may actually want to use at midnight), every conversion is a losing proposition
Mushroom Man
Member
Considering how much I work in order to pay for electricity, I think a gasification plant to create electrical energy is worth a bit of time and experimentation.
Let's paint a picture for those of you who think it's not worth the effort.
This list is not intended to be comprehensive:
1. Last year my rates of electricity skyrocketed by 25%. (Not just me...everyone in Ontario. Ostensibly, because our government needed to pay for the Green Energy program which supports projects that are at least as inefficient in converting alternative energy to electricity as what has been proposed here.). What if that happened for many years in a row?
2. My hydro went out twice for a day each (in effect) causing me no end of grief and forcing me to rely on a gasoline driven genset. If the outage had been long-term, say several weeks (as once happened here due to an ice storm), I would have expended all my fuel and been prey to cold weather and its potentially catastrophic effect on my heating system, storage tank and DHW plumbing. A sustainable fueled electrical generator would not only be cool, it would feel very good to be more independent from the grid
3. We all have gasifiers and know how to make gas with them. For those who don't pay attention...you burn small chunks of dry biomass, usually wood, over hot coals in a gasifier. As Don L wisely pointed-out, don't over-think it.
4. Most of us have a desire to be more self-sufficient.
5. Most of us are not stupid or lazy. We can be creative, energetic, clever, careful, resourceful, diligent and of course humble.
6. Most of us have at least some DIY skills. True, were not all engineers, but we would not need to be.
7. This stuff isn't rocket science
8. We would need few resources. Again this list isn't intended to be comprehensive. An old gas engine or a self-contained genset, a generator or alternator and battery, an inverter, some tubing or piping or pex, some valves, a vacuum creating device (blower), filtering materials, bins or drums, a welder or someone who welds (if you are going to build a stand-alone gasser), some electrical testing devices.
9. I guess that all my hydrogen, methane and other gases is not being consumed by my gasifier. I think that some is escaping up the chimney. I guess that I could run a small genset and still have plenty left for an efficient burn. Note: this is a theory not substantiated in any way. If this is wrong, a longer cycle of experimentation will be needed because an additional gasser will have to be made or bought. In the latter case, justifying the expenditure to my spouse may be a really hard sell.
10. We know gasification for electricity can be done. Others have done it. Others have made Youtube videos. History proves that others have done it. We can proceed with the premise that it is possible.
Let's paint a picture for those of you who think it's not worth the effort.
This list is not intended to be comprehensive:
1. Last year my rates of electricity skyrocketed by 25%. (Not just me...everyone in Ontario. Ostensibly, because our government needed to pay for the Green Energy program which supports projects that are at least as inefficient in converting alternative energy to electricity as what has been proposed here.). What if that happened for many years in a row?
2. My hydro went out twice for a day each (in effect) causing me no end of grief and forcing me to rely on a gasoline driven genset. If the outage had been long-term, say several weeks (as once happened here due to an ice storm), I would have expended all my fuel and been prey to cold weather and its potentially catastrophic effect on my heating system, storage tank and DHW plumbing. A sustainable fueled electrical generator would not only be cool, it would feel very good to be more independent from the grid
3. We all have gasifiers and know how to make gas with them. For those who don't pay attention...you burn small chunks of dry biomass, usually wood, over hot coals in a gasifier. As Don L wisely pointed-out, don't over-think it.
4. Most of us have a desire to be more self-sufficient.
5. Most of us are not stupid or lazy. We can be creative, energetic, clever, careful, resourceful, diligent and of course humble.
6. Most of us have at least some DIY skills. True, were not all engineers, but we would not need to be.
7. This stuff isn't rocket science
8. We would need few resources. Again this list isn't intended to be comprehensive. An old gas engine or a self-contained genset, a generator or alternator and battery, an inverter, some tubing or piping or pex, some valves, a vacuum creating device (blower), filtering materials, bins or drums, a welder or someone who welds (if you are going to build a stand-alone gasser), some electrical testing devices.
9. I guess that all my hydrogen, methane and other gases is not being consumed by my gasifier. I think that some is escaping up the chimney. I guess that I could run a small genset and still have plenty left for an efficient burn. Note: this is a theory not substantiated in any way. If this is wrong, a longer cycle of experimentation will be needed because an additional gasser will have to be made or bought. In the latter case, justifying the expenditure to my spouse may be a really hard sell.
10. We know gasification for electricity can be done. Others have done it. Others have made Youtube videos. History proves that others have done it. We can proceed with the premise that it is possible.
An intertesting site on use of wood/ pyrolitic gasification to run an engine
Around Sweden with Wood in the Tank:
http://www.vedbil.se/indexe.shtml
As another FYI, the folks that do the GEK gasifier are currently doing some really intriguing work with using straight woodgas to fuel a "listeroid" single-cylinder engine originally built for diesel (the Lister CS design is amazingly simple and robusr), started on diesel, and then, once warmed up, run with spark ignition on 100% woodgas.
BTW, a major component of woodgas is carbon monoxide, so safety is of utmost importance if you don't want to risk asphyxiation.
Around Sweden with Wood in the Tank:
http://www.vedbil.se/indexe.shtml
As another FYI, the folks that do the GEK gasifier are currently doing some really intriguing work with using straight woodgas to fuel a "listeroid" single-cylinder engine originally built for diesel (the Lister CS design is amazingly simple and robusr), started on diesel, and then, once warmed up, run with spark ignition on 100% woodgas.
BTW, a major component of woodgas is carbon monoxide, so safety is of utmost importance if you don't want to risk asphyxiation.
Mushroom Man
Member
Using my diesel tractor in a stationary mode to run a big genset is appealing because it would potentially create lots of power. I've read about a mix of diesel and syngas as the fuel of choice. 90/10 syngas/diesel has been successful with the same engine reliability. Now I just need to find that article again.
the three young swedish fellas that put that car togeher goes to show good ol fashioned techno geek is everywhere and shall rule the world. interested in this listeroid. is that on the GEK forum?
Tim
infinitymike
Minister of Fire
Yeah I did a little research a couple months ago. Victory is crazy expensive and some people are given him a bad rap saying he is rippin people off and not servicing them. But thats 3rd party info and you know how that goes..
Theres is a ton of info out there and they dont seem to hard to put together.
SmokeEater
Feeling the Heat
Pybyr, all you say is true at this point in time. As soon as technology advances to the place where we can put very large solar arrays in geosynchronous orbits, learn to convert, albeit at a conversion loss (that will be refined to a small percentage) that electric energy to a beamable and safe electromagnetic form that can be reconverted to electricity, we will use some of that energy to electrolyze water to its 2 components and use the hydrogen component in the current place of fossil fuels.
infinitymike
Minister of Fire
Ok now you guys are taking it to a whole nother level. I just wanted to keep it simple. A step or two above a caveman...burn wood .. make heat.. make gas ... make electric
.Next you"ll be talking about how to split the hydrogen cell and harness that energy even though it may have some conversion loss.
Been flat out during both days and evenings so just now having a chance to circle back. You can find the specific discussion on the unfolding wood-gas only running of a listeroid at:
http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/30448258/Spark conversion for Lister slow speed diesel engines
The author also previously started a YahooGroup of owners or interested folks regarding the Lister CS long-stroke low RPM open flywheel engines- it's called ListerCSOG and contains some pretty ingenious folks.
He's also done some fascinating work on low-tech residential scale combined heat and power:
http://www.powercubes.com/listers.html
(look also at his earlier veg-oil fueled lister experiments on prior pages (at bottom) where he used the heat from the engine for space heating use)
Unfortunately, original Lister CS engines are uncommon in the US, and imports of the "clones" (AKA Listeroids) has been brought to a halt by US diesel emissions regs (I support clean air and use of best reasonably available technology on new medium and large diesels, but this strikes me as a situation where one-size-fits-all regulation has stifled something that could represent appropriate technology and a path to innovation). Canadian folks may not be quite so limited and there may be ways that "the determined" can work around this by bringing in parts and sub-assemblies.... I have a pre-ban Listeroid 6/1 in my barn but it's so far been parked in the dormant "too many projects not enough time" category.
BTW, I am skeptical that a downdraft gasifier of the sort that many/most here in the Boiler room use or are considering can be readily "run" (or modified to run) "hands off" in a steady state that will output consistent woodgas (engine-suitable) for any significant length of time-- but I will be the first to be delighted if someone proves otherwise!
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