Sorry! But I Had To Ask. (and hope)

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Jeff Childers

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Mar 7, 2007
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It seems that my radiant floor heating solution only needs a good way to heat the water. It doesn't require any other heating function except hot water. I think I can figure out the plumbing with all the help in this group. So do I really need to buy a boiler for this purpose? (can you say EXPENSIVE?) Isn't there anyone who makes a simple wood-fired heater for water that is CHEAP?

Oh sure, I'd like some of the things that those expensive boilers offer, like automatic re-ignition, the whole gasification thing, and the ability to build a BIG fire that lasts a LONG time. But I don't really HAVE to have them.

I'm not gifted enough to fashion my own heater from scratch like some of the readers of this forum, so I must rely on a talented manufacturer to do it for me. Can anyone make the introduction for me to a company or product like this?

My entire budget for this project is just $5K and it's beginning to look hopeless. My only hope is to find someone who has done this before and can point me to the right place. Are you that person?

Thankful for any hope you can flush my way.
 
Where are you located Jeff? Have you looked around for a used Gasifier?
 
It seems that my radiant floor heating solution only needs a good way to heat the water. It doesn't require any other heating function except hot water. I think I can figure out the plumbing with all the help in this group. So do I really need to buy a boiler for this purpose? (can you say EXPENSIVE?) Isn't there anyone who makes a simple wood-fired heater for water that is CHEAP?
You could go with a wood stove with a coil - "but "- the initial cheaper cost will soon lose out to higher wood consumption when compared to a gassification boiler.
I have burnt wood most of my life - much of it the old fashioned way. Now we have gasification, there is now way I would ever go back.

Our first boiler was like the one pictured below. It burned 20 cords a year compared to the 5 cords a year that our gasification boiler with storage!
 

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You didn't say what your preferred fuel would be. Assuming wood, keep your eyes peeled for used boilers in good shape. I think it's the only way you're going to meet your budget.
 
It seems that my radiant floor heating solution only needs a good way to heat the water. It doesn't require any other heating function except hot water. I think I can figure out the plumbing with all the help in this group. So do I really need to buy a boiler for this purpose? (can you say EXPENSIVE?) Isn't there anyone who makes a simple wood-fired heater for water that is CHEAP?

Oh sure, I'd like some of the things that those expensive boilers offer, like automatic re-ignition, the whole gasification thing, and the ability to build a BIG fire that lasts a LONG time. But I don't really HAVE to have them.

I'm not gifted enough to fashion my own heater from scratch like some of the readers of this forum, so I must rely on a talented manufacturer to do it for me. Can anyone make the introduction for me to a company or product like this?

My entire budget for this project is just $5K and it's beginning to look hopeless. My only hope is to find someone who has done this before and can point me to the right place. Are you that person?

Thankful for any hope you can flush my way.
What's your heat load? Or give some more specifics about your home/setup.
 
Yep. My preferred fuel is wood because I can get all I want for free. Mostly storm damaged stuff off of my property. I burn wood now in a woodstove but it only works in the one room and leaves the rest of the house pretty cold. The entire house has a radiant floor but it was just too expensive to use it with a tankless propane water heater. I'm looking to do it with a wood-fired water heater. The part of the house I want to heat is about 2,400 sq. ft. I have 3/4" PEX in the slab and I think it would be pretty easy to switch my plumbing to use a wood heater.

Nobody in my area (So. TN) uses boilers so there's little hope of finding a used one locally. I'm not sure the local plumbers could build me one from scratch either. ISn't there some sort of product on the market that is optimized for water heating yet still has some good features for the homeowner? That's sort of what I'm looking for.

Thanks for all the ideas.
 
Yep. My preferred fuel is wood because I can get all I want for free. Mostly storm damaged stuff off of my property. I burn wood now in a woodstove but it only works in the one room and leaves the rest of the house pretty cold. The entire house has a radiant floor but it was just too expensive to use it with a tankless propane water heater. I'm looking to do it with a wood-fired water heater. The part of the house I want to heat is about 2,400 sq. ft. I have 3/4" PEX in the slab and I think it would be pretty easy to switch my plumbing to use a wood heater.

Nobody in my area (So. TN) uses boilers so there's little hope of finding a used one locally. I'm not sure the local plumbers could build me one from scratch either. ISn't there some sort of product on the market that is optimized for water heating yet still has some good features for the homeowner? That's sort of what I'm looking for.

Thanks for all the ideas.

Hi Jeff,

Your right, I have not found a residential plumber in middle TN that is willing to do boilers, some of the commercial HVAC guys do for hospitals and hotels and the like. But they say, we don't do residential. No used wood or propane boilers either. Their are some up Ky way if you go far enough north.

I did my own pex and plumbing (only the basement so far) to save money and for the same reason I want to heat with wood. The budget wall is my current hurdle to over come. Thanks to the talent on this board and a lot of reading about all the different gasser models available. I have already decided to save up for a Varm as my choice for a wood gasser.

When propane is over the $2.72 a gallon I use electric I heated the basement using a plain old hot water heater last year and this year. Yes, not the best way but was a cheap solution for my application.

Just curious though what size (BTU/H) is your propane water heater rated? GPM?

DHill
 
What type and amount of insulation does your house have? Also, have you done a detailed evaluation of air infiltration? Do you know how your A/C usage compares to others, using something like a target figure from your electric provider? If you have poor insulation and/or air infiltration, 5K could put a big dent in both heating and cooling costs.
 
Other than having a HVAC/sheet metal contractor install my heat exchanger in the ductwork and a foam contractor for the underground line essentially all the rest of the install I did mostly with a couple of big pipe wrenches. I actually enjoyed the process the first time screwing everything together. Second time not so much because the "professional" plumbing guy recommended a pipe dope unsuitable for our systems. And I learned a lot about how pourous cheap Chinese black iron fittings are. First year put up with small weeping joints, but pink telfon and blue Rectorseal stopped that. I see some installs here using copper and if I did it all over again I think I'd learn to solder and save a bunch of time (but probably not money). Point is you can do it yourself if you put your mind to it.
 
It seems that my radiant floor heating solution only needs a good way to heat the water. It doesn't require any other heating function except hot water. I think I can figure out the plumbing with all the help in this group. So do I really need to buy a boiler for this purpose? (can you say EXPENSIVE?) Isn't there anyone who makes a simple wood-fired heater for water that is CHEAP?

Oh sure, I'd like some of the things that those expensive boilers offer, like automatic re-ignition, the whole gasification thing, and the ability to build a BIG fire that lasts a LONG time. But I don't really HAVE to have them.

I'm not gifted enough to fashion my own heater from scratch like some of the readers of this forum, so I must rely on a talented manufacturer to do it for me. Can anyone make the introduction for me to a company or product like this?

My entire budget for this project is just $5K and it's beginning to look hopeless. My only hope is to find someone who has done this before and can point me to the right place. Are you that person?

Thankful for any hope you can flush my way.

Jeff , DS Machine makes 120K BTU boiler that retails for under $2000 .
 
Yep. My preferred fuel is wood because I can get all I want for free. Mostly storm damaged stuff off of my property. I burn wood now in a woodstove but it only works in the one room and leaves the rest of the house pretty cold. The entire house has a radiant floor but it was just too expensive to use it with a tankless propane water heater. I'm looking to do it with a wood-fired water heater. The part of the house I want to heat is about 2,400 sq. ft. I have 3/4" PEX in the slab and I think it would be pretty easy to switch my plumbing to use a wood heater.
This product was posted on this site several weeks ago.http://www.hydro-to-heat-convertor.com/
 
Timbur, I looked up the DS Machine website and it looks like they are a metal fabricator. Are you saying I can get a water heater built to my specifications fro something in the neighborhood of $2K? That would be awesome. I've emailed them and requested more info.
Does anyone have any other info on DS Machines?

DHILL, I have a Takagi T-K3 Propane tankless water heater. It puts out 11,000 to 119,000 Btu/h using between 0.4 and 7.0 GPM. The manual says it can raise the water temp by 77 degrees at 4.3 GPM.

WillWorkForWood, my house is ultra tight. It is an insulated concrete form house with 13" outside walls and Icynene spray insulation in all of the walls and ceiling. Using the propane to heat the radiant floor used almost 200 gallons in one month! I unplugged it after that! Gotta find another way to heat the house. I have a standard heat pump and also a wood burning stove, but I don't like forced-air heat and the stove is too small for the whole house. I really just need to get my radiant floor working again and all will be well.

I got a brouchure from Hardy Heater yesterday. Their cheapest unit is a little over $5K and they seem to be my best lead so far. I really wanted an indoor unit but I guess I could settle for an outdoor unit, too.
 
Jeff,
Something isn't adding up. That seems like an awful lot of propane to heat an ICF house in Tennesee that is insulated as well as you say it is. Is the slab high and dry and well insulated below?
 
Fred61, I agree! and I was shocked. I called the Radiant Floor people and sent them pictures of my setup and asked if I'd done something wrong. I thought I had followed their installation plan. But they didn't offer any changes and so I concluded I needed to change my water heating capability. All along I thought that maybe the circulator was busted but my plumber confirmed that it was working correctly. I loved the heat I felt in that one month and would like to get it back, but it has to be cheaper. Maybe my original set up was done incorrectly, but I can mitigate that by using a cheap source for heat (wood). My plumber said that my installation was his 1st time. Maybe that is the problem.
The slab is suspended over my basement. It has 16" of foam underneath the concrete (I think it was called "lite-Deck"?)

By the way, the DS Machine folks wrote me to say they couldn't help me. Back to square 1.
Tennman says I should be able to find a good gassification unit for a little over $5K, so I'm off and looking again.
 
As Fred said, something isn't adding up. Not intending to question anything you've said, but rather to figure out if I'm not adding correctly ;) You said the stove can't heat the whole house. Many years ago, we heated a 2.2K sf old colonial exclusively (and comfortably) with a big old Ashley - every day, every night (including one at -22). Pulled the heat into the side rooms using corner fans. And in the first year, there was no insulation in the walls! So, I'm thinking that in an ICF house in TN, the stove would roast you out of the room it's in, and heat the others to around 75. Now, I understand that your particular floor plan may not allow heat to get pulled into every room, but would expect that it could do nearly all of the house. Perhaps it's a really small stove? Also, just to confirm (to me) that your house is really that tight; does your A/C usage run less than most other like-sized houses in your area? Can't help thinking there is some missing piece of information.
 
The entire house is 5,400 sq.ft. with 12' ceilings in all rooms except the greatroom which is 23' tall. My wood stove is a medium sized Dutchwest stove. It does a good job in the greatroom and can raise the temps on the main floor (2,400 sq. ft.) to about 60 degrees but it does nothing for the basement and very little for the 2nd floor. I don't have a great way to move the air out of the greatroom and into all the other areas of the house. And yes, if the stove is fired up it makes it very hard to stay in the greatroom.
The electric bill is about $200 max during the summer. I can keep it under $125 during the shoulder seasons. A lot of that is due to the use of CF bulbs exclusively in the house and the open design and long days minimize lightbulb costs. I have a 3-ton unit for the bottom 2 floors and a 2-ton unit for the upstairs. Works great!

We only used the radiant floor one month because of the propane bill. Now I am beginning to wonder if my system is hooked up correctly. It looked like the tankless heater was running almost all of the time. Maybe I should have used a water heater with a tank? Al least then I could coast a little bit every now and then. I wish I had an expert that I could get to diagnose my problem and propose a solution but there just isn't a lot of experience in my area with radiant floors. Even less with boilers!

I'm still plugging! Current plan is to buy a boiler or something similar to heat my water with wood. The radiant floor will keep us toasty then.
 
Jeff,
Is it possible that you gave up heating with the radiant slab before you got it up to temperature. Perhaps the tankless was continually running because the slab was not up to temperature. How thick is the concrete?
 
Jeff,
Is it possible that you gave up heating with the radiant slab before you got it up to temperature. Perhaps the tankless was continually running because the slab was not up to temperature. How thick is the concrete?

Yep even in TN, the first year I started my concrete slab it was at 46 degrees. The electric bill went up by about $220 that month (its only a 4.5kw water heater) I had the same reaction. I shut it down. Found out in another forum that was because the slab was so cold.

The following year I monitored the slab temp and started the heat around mid September before the slab cooled below 65 degrees. Made a big dent in the first months bill.

The guys on this forum know the math But it takes a lot of extra BTUs to bring a slab up to 75 when the slab is at 46 vs 65 degrees.

My largest stupid tax for that year.

DHill
 
I can see now that your tall rooms aren't a great fit for a stove, with lots of the heat going up instead of across. Given your free access to wood, it probably would be a good thing for you to find a boiler to take care of that big flywheel (slab). Any possibility of taking out a loan of let's say 5-7K? That, plus your 5K should be able to get something decent installed (assuming you can find a dealer in your area). Consider it an investment - burning free wood, you can probably pay the loan back in 2-4 years with propane savings.
 
DS Machine is an Amish company from PA and doesn't have a website , if you pm me with your address I can send you their brochure , it also has their ph # on it and they could help you find a local dealer .

But , I also believe if you can spend the extra money , you will be much happier with a gassification unit .
 
Jeff, New Horizon currently has both the EKO and BioMass 40 class boilers on sale for a little over 5k. You'll spend about another 1.5-2k on pumps, fittings, and stuff. Have no idea what your heat load is. Didn't I read up there somewhere where you built it and supposed to be energy efficient?
 
EKO 25 $4390.00 and free shipping. to business location.
 
Ouch! I hope Fred61 didn't hit the nail on the head. The slab is huge and it's 16" thick in places. Maybe I quit too soon!!

I will still pursue a solution that includes a boiler burning the free wood I can get. Great news about the EKO 25 for under $5K. I can afford that! Now I just need to find someone to help me install it. I will want to be sure that I can use the boiler BEFORE I get it. I've seen several folks in this forum that hooked up their Radiant Floor systems to their boiler, so I am sure it is possible. I jsut need to find someone locally that can do all the plumbing.

I still have lots of questions, but I want to thank all you guys who helped me decide on this path forward. I'll be checking in all along the way, asking a lot more questions.
 
Did you check the btu/hr output of your current heater/boiler? There's only a few hundred dollars between 25 and 40 class boilers. Try to get a good handle on your energy load to avoid undersizing the boiler. Sounds like your home is very energy efficient (unlike mine). Be a shame to buy a 25 and it be undersized to save hundreds. BTW, the plumbing is easy once you show the plumber what one looks like.
 
EKO 40 delivered for $4750, and its more than 50% larger than the 25. Well worth the $350. IMO
 
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