In the beginning there was...

Brookstone · May 5, 2012

I am currently in the planning stages of constructing a new house in central Virginia. I've picked out the parcel of land (1 acre) and I have a house plan (see attachment for side elevation view). The house is approx. 3000 sq. feet (2400 sf on the first floor).

I would like to have a wood burning stove installed. Right now I am trying to put together a request for bid, listing all of the features that I want to see in the house. Currently I'm at the point of specifying the wood stove. You can see from the attachments that the chase/chimney is not on an exterior wall, so at least I've got a fireplace-friendly house design.

I understand the difference between a wood stove and a wood burning insert. What I would like to know is, what "the experts" would recommend I include if one is starting from scratch and is putting together a request for bid list when it comes to the matter of a wood burning stove. What type of chimney system/piping should I include in my list? Construction materials for the chase? Recommendations on a particular model of stove, etc.? How would you all go about describing in writing all of the details that a contractor would need to know in order to price out the associated items when it comes to including a wood stove in a new house?

Thanks

Phil

begreen · May 5, 2012

I like that the design is starting off with the fireplace centrally located. Is this where the stove/insert would go? Personally I don't think I would go to the expense of a masonry fireplace just to house a wood insert. I would just put in a beautiful and functional wood stove. Or, another option would be to put in a good quality, EPA zero-clearance fireplace instead of a masonry fireplace. It's enclosure can be faced with stone or brick veneer so that it looks like a traditional fireplace, but burns much cleaner and has the option of ducting heat to other areas of the house.

As for the size, that is going to depend on how well insulated and sealed the house is. If a superior insulation method is used and extra insulated windows installed, then the heat load can be less than would be typical for this size house.The size will also depend on how frequently the stove/fireplace is to be used and whether is will be the primary source of heat in extended power outages or not. If freestanding,

For some ZC fireplace ideas take a look at fireplaces by Kozy, BIS, RSF for starters.

http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/rsf/the-opel-3-fireplace
http://www.kozyheat.com/z42cd.html
http://www.securitychimneys.com/pages/fireplace/high_BisUltima.asp?country=ca

Another option would be to put in a masonry heater like a Tulikivi. A couple fires a day in a properly sized masonry heater would evenly heat the place.

http://www.tulikivi.com/usa-can/fireplaces/TU2500L
http://www.masonryheater.com/

Chettt · May 5, 2012

I would take out the walls between the living, dining and breakfast areas and widen the stairways up to the second floor for better heat flow. A new build will probably have R 20 in the walls and R 38 in the attic together with modern windows any full size stove should keep the house warm. Have the construction crew leave all the scrap lumber for you.

Brookstone · May 5, 2012

begreen said:
I like that the design is starting off with the fireplace centrally located. Is this where the stove/insert would go?

Yes, the wood stove would be placed in the family room.

begreen said:
Personally I don't think I would go to the expense of a masonry fireplace just to house a wood insert.

Why do you call it a "wood insert"? An insert is something that is shoved into an existing masonry chimney. No? Can't one have a masonry chimney and also have a wood burning stove?

begreen said:
As for the size...The size will also depend on how frequently the stove/fireplace is to be used and whether is will be the primary source of heat in extended power outages or not.

The woodstove would not be the primary heat source. I'm looking at either all propane heat or electric with a propane backup. The fireplace would be for the weekends during cold winter days.

I didn't hear any comments about the flue pipe and chase design. I've heard of insulated and non-insulated chimneys. Double walled and triple walled flues. Or is the piping all determined by the wood stove one purchases, i.e., the manufacturer will dictate what flue piping system should be used?

Phil

Brookstone · May 5, 2012

Chettt said:
I would take out the walls between the living, dining and breakfast areas and widen the stairways up to the second floor for better heat flow.

Thanks, however, if I take out those walls, the 2nd floor will collapse.

Regarding widening the stairs...this is unnecessary IMHO, since the family room has a cathedral ceiling, and it is open to the second floor. Heat will get to the second floor very quickly, regardless of the width of the staircase. Below you will see the floor plan layout for the second floor.

begreen · May 5, 2012

Brookstone said:
Yes, the wood stove would be placed in the family room.

Why do you call it a "wood insert"? An insert is something that is shoved into an existing masonry chimney. No? Can't one have a masonry chimney and also have a wood burning stove?

The woodstove would not be the primary heat source. I'm looking at either all propane heat or electric with a propane backup. The fireplace would be for the weekends during cold winter days.

I didn't hear any comments about the flue pipe and chase design. I've heard of insulated and non-insulated chimneys. Double walled and triple walled flues. Or is the piping all determined by the wood stove one purchases, i.e., the manufacturer will dictate what flue piping system should be used?

Phil

Hey Phil, first... welcome to the forums. You have good basic questions. Yes, you can put in a masonry chimney to service a freestanding wood stove. Many do not because of the greater cost, higher maintenance and long term durability. But a masonry chimney is certainly an option. Another is to put up a stainless flue in a chase and then clad the chase with a stone or brick veneer on the outside. My comment was about building a full fireplace just to house an insert. That is overkill IMO, thus the suggestion to look at quality ZC fireplaces if this is the desired look.

Given the usage I would take a look at the ZC fireplaces mentioned previously. They are going to give you a great fireview and pretty efficient heating while looking very sharp. If you want to clad the exterior piping in a chase with stone or brick, that can be done. All the units I provided the link for use classA HT insulated pipe.

FWIW, for primary heating/cooling in your climate I would definitely install a modern, very high-efficiency, 2 stage heatpump with propane or electric as 3d stage backup.

Brookstone · May 5, 2012

begreen said:
Hey Phil, first... welcome to the forums.

Thank you for the welcome.

begreen said:
Yes, you can put in a masonry chimney to service a freestanding wood stove. Many do not because of the greater cost, higher maintenance and long term durability. But a masonry chimney is certainly an option.

I see your point. I guess I was thinking that to have an above roof brick chimney one would need an entire brick chase, from 1st floor to above the tip of the chimney. After your comments, I realized that brick veneer can be applied to the above the roof portion of the chimney. I didn't realize that there was brick veneer available.

begreen said:
Given the usage I would take a look at the ZC fireplaces mentioned previously.

Are the Heatilater Accelerator and/or Constitution zero clearance fireplaces?

begreen said:
All the units I provided the link for use classA HT insulated pipe.

So it is the pipe that is insulated, not the chase and chimney? For some reason I thought that it was the latter.

Lastly, would it be overkill to do the framing box-in around the ZC fireplace with metal studs and concrete board?

Phil

Corey · May 5, 2012

I had a set-up something similar to that...formal living room, formal dining room, breakfast area, kitchen, family room, etc. You may be different, but pretty worthless for the way we live. Nobody spent time in the 'living room' when there was a beautiful, warm fireplace in the family room. When guests came over, it was too small for everyone...and again, the allure of the fireplace drew everyone into that room. As just us, we never ate in the formal 'dining room' and anytime family/company came over, no way could they be crammed into a 12x14 'formal dining room' space. When people did come over, we're usually in the kitchen putting the final touches on the meal - and guests want to grab a drink, hang out and converse, so everyone was crowded in the breakfast area, no real place to sit, stereo/tv/entertainment is way off in another room. etc.

We tweaked some things around, did away with the 'formal living room', wound up with a ~16x20 dining area off the foyer and easy/open access to the kitchen, 16x15 kitchen - which is big enough - but could be even bigger to account for extra 'chefs' but has a nice breakfast bar overlooking the18x25 family room. Now people can sit in the family or dining room, mill about, talk to each other, talk to us, etc. Kitchen is big enough and has multiple entry/exit points so people can come in, get ice, water, or what ever and we still have a decent amount of space to work. Anyway, just my .02 on that.

As far as wood heat, since you're not looking for primary heat, most anything would work, though with all those rooms and bi-levels, you will heat with hot air - not radiant heat. This will push you away from a 'stove' or 'stove in fireplace' configuration if you want efficiency. You'll want an insert or a 'built-in-stove' Something with a big blower to get plenty of heat out.

Todd · May 5, 2012

If I was looking to build a new home I'd look at installing a centrally located masonry heater like Tempcast or Tulikivi.

begreen · May 5, 2012

Brookstone said:
Are the Heatilater Accelerator and/or Constitution zero clearance fireplaces?

Yes. They Accelerator looks like a less expensive ZC with glass doors, not EPA and less efficient. The Constitution looks like a more serious heater. I'm not familiar with it, but that doesn't mean it's not a good unit. There are lots of brands/models in the low-end, contractor grade market, but they are not nearly as efficient, clean burning or EPA approved like the better units suggested. A good EPA phase II ZC fireplace is a high-end stove in a fireplace form. Fireplace Xtrordinair (FPX) is another one to consider.

So it is the pipe that is insulated, not the chase and chimney? For some reason I thought that it was the latter.

That's correct. You can insulate the chase, but it's not necessary, particularly in a centrally located chase.

Lastly, would it be overkill to do the framing box-in around the ZC fireplace with metal studs and concrete board?

Not if it gives you peace of mind. Cement board is a good idea anyway as substrate for stone/brick or tile veneer. Take a look at a few of the units I posted and the Constitution and download the manuals for a better idea of how they are installed.

Brookstone · May 5, 2012

Todd said:
If I was looking to build a new home I'd look at installing a centrally located masonry heater

I had not heard of masonry heaters until you mentioned them. Upon investigating, they seem interesting. They also seem to require a solid masonry foundation upon which to sit. You can't just build one of these things on OSB board on top of wood joists, or am I wrong? If one is planning on building a basement with this new house, one would then need to create a 9'-10' foundation under the first floor, in order to sit the masonry heater on. Or is this overkill?

Cost wise, what would one expect to spend on a masonry heater to heat a 3000 sq. foot house? Any idea?

begreen · May 5, 2012

Yes, it's a lot of weight to support. The folks at Tulikivi, Tempcast or MasonryHeaters can help answer the support question. Cost will depend on how fancy you want to get. Guestimate figure $8-10K.

fossil · May 5, 2012

The decision you're trying to make here is, I think, really pretty strongly budget-driven. The range of possible solutions is vast, as is the range of price tags. If I had the luxury of starting from scratch, and money was no object, I might just have a beautiful masonry/stone fireplace/chimney stucture built into the house which would accomodate a nice hearth stove installation. Next down the cost scale would be (for me) a nicely thought out & built hearth area for a freestanding woodstove, with a straight up flue through the ceiling/roof to daylight. In any case, there are a lot of good reasons to design such that the flue from the appliance to daylight is a straight shot (no elbows anywhere). Rick

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