Getting ready to pull the Trigger

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.
F

Folkers

Member
Jul 23, 2012
31
South East, MA
Hello all,

Wanted to get some thoughts from the group. I bought a small ranch last November, 800 sq ft with an open floor plan, and a separate flue for working fireplace. This is an ideal situation for a pellet stove insert. Existing main source of heat is oil fired hot water boiler. Boiler is terribly inefficient (67%). I was giving serious consideration to buying a pellet stove insert before throwing money at a new boiler. I know I'll eventually have to replace the boiler, but for now it still works OK. So, here's my concern: I'm concerned that demand for wood pellets will outstrip supply, and people that have pellet stoves will be SOL. Did anyone have the same concern before buying a pellet stove? Can anyone share their thoughts about the overall pellet supply going forward? I recently got a quote of $3,600 +/- for a pellet insert. I'm at a place where I could either throw money towards a pellet stove, or throw money towards an efficient boiler (modcons I think they call them). The modcons are significantly higher in price than your standard cast iron boiler. I just hate the thought of being at the mercy of big oil.

Thoughts?
 
Hello

I purchased a Buderus Oil Boiler with Superstor Indirect water tank for DHW. That cut my oil bill in half. Actually less than half. My old tankless coil Valiant was 85% efficient but all that means is not much smoke, it still used alot of oil!

Anyway, I went to an Avalon Astoria Free Standing wood pellet stove 3 years ago and never used a drop of oil for my 2,000 sq ft split anymore! I installed it into the basement and cut 2 registers, one in the living room and one in the kitchen! The basement is 80 Degs and the upstairs is a comfortable 70 degs with the bedrooms a few degrees cooler but not much!

I use 3 tons of wood pellets per year and 1 tank of oil for DHW.

Yes, we are concerned about wood pellet prices but since Lowes, Home Depot and Walmart carry them we are in real good shape! They used to be approx $300 per ton 4-5 years ago but now since there are many more mills making pellets and the big box stores holding the price down we are seeing approx $200 per ton!

Home Depot in Salem NH got their first load in for the next winter season and are selling for a comfortable $209 per ton. See pic below. Who knows if they will go up.

That is just my practical analysis from experience. Numbers do vary alot! Depends on insulation and how warm you like it!

So far we have reached PEAK oil, they are no longer building new oil refineries in the US. However more pellet mills ARE being built so we have not reached PEAK Pellets! ! !

So there is a definite BUY now recommendation on Wood Pellet Heat!
Also there are multi-fuel stoves too. Depends upon if you live in the corn belt.

Please put your general location in your Avatar so we can better help you in your location!

Click on pics below to see entire image.

According to the conversion pic
Home Depot's current $4.18 per bag is equal to 2.5 gallons of oil at a current price of $8.25
at the current $3.30 per gallon at Palmer Oil in Salem NH.

Remember you can buy your 3 tons of pellets right now for the whole winter (approx $627 for 3 tons), you cannot always do that for oil unless you buy a contract which is typically $0.25 per gallon higher than the curren price of oil so that $8.25 could be lock at $8.875 (approx $1331.25) for the whole winter. So that is a conservative estimated savings of $1331.25 - $627 = $704.25 in your pocket! Based on using oil for home heating for 150 days in the winter.

This is also only based upon using the most efficient oil boiler, if yours is very inefficient (Not a cold start, triple pass boiler with an outdoor reset and indirect water tank) then you may save even more up to double your savings to $1408.50 for the winter!
 

Attachments

  • PelletFuelEquivilance.jpg
    PelletFuelEquivilance.jpg
    22 KB · Views: 130
  • FireSideUltraTonPrice.jpg
    FireSideUltraTonPrice.jpg
    151.3 KB · Views: 142
  • 060Valliant22years.JPG
    060Valliant22years.JPG
    135.8 KB · Views: 149
Don2222 said:
Hello

I purchased a Buderus Oil Boiler with Superstor Indirect water tank for DHW. That cut my oil bill in half. Actually less than half. My old tankless coil Valiant was 85% efficient but all that means is not much smoke, it still used alot of oil!

Anyway, I went to an Avalon Astoria Free Standing wood pellet stove 3 years ago and never used a drop of oil for my 2,000 sq ft split anymore! I installed it into the basement and cut 2 registers, one in the living room and one in the kitchen! The basement is 80 Degs and the upstairs is a comfortable 70 degs with the bedrooms a few degrees cooler but not much!

I use 3 tons of wood pellets per year and 1 tank of oil for DHW.

Yes, we are concerned about wood pellet prices but since Lowes, Home Depot and Walmart carry them we are in real good shape! They used to be approx $300 per ton 4-5 years ago but now since there are many more mills making pellets and the big box stores holding the price down we are seeing approx $200 per ton!

Home Depot in Salem NH got their first load in for the next winter season and are selling for a comfortable $209 per ton. See pic below. Who knows if they will go up.

So far we have reached PEAK oil, they are no longer building new oil refineries in the US. However more pellet mills ARE being built so we have not reached PEAK Pellets! ! !

So there is a definite BUY now recommendation on Wood Pellet Heat!
Also there are multi-fuel stoves too. Depends upon if you live in the corn belt.

Please put your general location in your Avatar so we can better help you in your location!

Click on pics below to see entire image.

According to the conversion pic
Home Depot's current $4.18 per bag is equal to 2.5 gallons of oil at a current price of $8.25
at the current $3.30 per gallon at Palmer Oil in Salem NH.

Remember you can buy your 3 tons of pellets right now for the whole winter (approx $627 for 3 tons), you cannot always do that for oil unless you buy a contract which is typically $0.25 per gallon higher than the curren price of oil so that $8.25 could be lock at $8.875 (approx $1331.25) for the whole winter. So that is a conservative estimated savings of $1331.25 - $627 = $704.25 in your pocket! based on using oil for home heating for 150 days in the winter.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback....Raynham MA BTW.
It sounds like you have the best of both worlds: A very efficient boiler and a pellet stove to make a serious dent in oil consumption. That's great. Good point too about buying pellets for the season. It's interesting you mention Buderus, my oil burner tech recommended a Buderus. Of course he's going to try and sell me on the Cadillac of boilers as opposed to a Toyota.

The two inserts I was looking at were the Harmon P35I and the Quadra Fire Classic Bay 1200I. With only 800 s.f. to heat, and an open floorplan, these two inserts will work. The previous owner installed a ceiling fan above the fireplace ( I know it looks out of place) in an effort to better distribute the fireplace heat. I was going to take the fan down, but I said, "what the heck", leave it up. I guess it could only help the insert to distribute heat as well.

Thanks again...
 
well, there have been shortages in the past......about Hurricane Katrina was the last time, due to huge demand......noone can say if it will continue forward though....right now, I'll say it again....RIGHT NOW, there is no shortage......but, if everyone wait to buy at the same time, there will be a logistical shortage. Thats the beauty of pellets....you can buy earlier in the year, as many of the pellet pigs here can attest, and not need to worry about supply issues. My reccommendation: buy early, or buy soon.....(and "early" is NOT September or October!)
 
Folkers said:
Hello all,

Wanted to get some thoughts from the group. I bought a small ranch last November, 800 sq ft with an open floor plan, and a separate flue for working fireplace. This is an ideal situation for a pellet stove insert. Existing main source of heat is oil fired hot water boiler. Boiler is terribly inefficient (67%). I was giving serious consideration to buying a pellet stove insert before throwing money at a new boiler. I know I'll eventually have to replace the boiler, but for now it still works OK. So, here's my concern: I'm concerned that demand for wood pellets will outstrip supply, and people that have pellet stoves will be SOL. Did anyone have the same concern before buying a pellet stove? Can anyone share their thoughts about the overall pellet supply going forward? I recently got a quote of $3,600 +/- for a pellet insert. I'm at a place where I could either throw money towards a pellet stove, or throw money towards an efficient boiler (modcons I think they call them). The modcons are significantly higher in price than your standard cast iron boiler. I just hate the thought of being at the mercy of big oil.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I may eat my words, but I just can't see pellet stoves replacing the more relatively effortless options of oil or especially gas.
 
Lousyweather said:
maybe, WTF, maybe, but I can tell ya, they have replaced big oil in my home as well as many others here!
Click to expand...

Zero "ProPain" for several yrs now ;)

To the OP...... The price of pellets may increase over the yrs, but the supply aint going nowhere. This market is getting bigger and bigger every yr... One things for sure, pellets will always be cheaper than Oil and/or Propane (Nat Gas is pretty cheap).

As for the stove, both are good models. The Classic Bay has more HP, but for your size place, I would get the Cadillac (oops, I mean Harman) for the added features and adjustability.

Oh and Welcome to the Forum. Be prepared for "sickness" that will follow ;)
 
I suppose one way to look at it is: if you buy in bulk for the entire season you don't have to worry if God forbid there were a pellet shortage in the middle of winter. I'm probably going to end up buying a pellet stove, but it would be comforting to know that the major suppliers of wood pellets are here to stay. In other words, they see there's a legitimate long term need out there to supply pellets, and they can make a decent profit at it. The more suppliers out there the better. Let basic economics work its magic.

I know there's a little work involved with pellet stoves (can't just turn the thermostat up), but I'm all about being "practical" in this economy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lousyweather
Folkers said:
Hello all,

Wanted to get some thoughts from the group. I bought a small ranch last November, 800 sq ft with an open floor plan, and a separate flue for working fireplace. This is an ideal situation for a pellet stove insert. Existing main source of heat is oil fired hot water boiler. Boiler is terribly inefficient (67%). I was giving serious consideration to buying a pellet stove insert before throwing money at a new boiler. I know I'll eventually have to replace the boiler, but for now it still works OK. So, here's my concern: I'm concerned that demand for wood pellets will outstrip supply, and people that have pellet stoves will be SOL. Did anyone have the same concern before buying a pellet stove? Can anyone share their thoughts about the overall pellet supply going forward? I recently got a quote of $3,600 +/- for a pellet insert. I'm at a place where I could either throw money towards a pellet stove, or throw money towards an efficient boiler (modcons I think they call them). The modcons are significantly higher in price than your standard cast iron boiler. I just hate the thought of being at the mercy of big oil.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Check out this industry white paper.

http://www.biomassthermal.org/resource/pdfs/heatne_vision_full.pdf

I'd be more concerned with oil supply...where have you been in New England without seeing a tree?
 
DexterDay said:
Zero "ProPain" for several yrs now ;)

To the OP...... The price of pellets may increase over the yrs, but the supply aint going nowhere. This market is getting bigger and bigger every yr... One things for sure, pellets will always be cheaper than Oil and/or Propane (Nat Gas is pretty cheap).

As for the stove, both are good models. The Classic Bay has more HP, but for your size place, I would get the Cadillac (oops, I mean Harman) for the added features and adjustability.

Oh and Welcome to the Forum. Be prepared for "sickness" that will follow ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks.....

Zero ProPain.....I like that one!

I suspected that the market may be growing for this. Let's hope we never see a "Wood Pellet Cartel"!!! If we do I'll just buy a lot of blankets and tough the winters out.

I was thinking the Harmon was a wee bit better as well...
 
It's funny, here we are talking about home heating and it's 90 degrees in the shade. It's all my fault! Sorry....
 
Please, get a stove that will burn most any pellet, corn, nutshells etc. if the stove isn't a fussy one, then you shop for bargains, not the pellet that cost the most for a few more BTU's. Plug any air leak you can find in your home. You'll have a good heating system, and keep up with this forum. You will learn a lot about home heating with pellets. My only regret is not having purchased a better stove in the beginning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eatonpcat
Folkers said:
It's funny, here we are talking about home heating and it's 90 degrees in the shade. It's all my fault! Sorry....
Click to expand...

Its a daily occurrence. No worries...

As for the Pellets. Just buy when there cheap and stock up. Kept dry they will last yrs and yrs...

I bought 9 ton at the end of 2010-2011 season. Still have about 5.5-6 left. Got all for under $190 a ton (2 ton at $190, 2 ton at $180, and 5 ton at $177/ton). I spent under $1,700 and thats enough fuel for about 3 yrs (or about $550 a yr). I use to spend $3,600 a yr on the "Pain". So the savings can be huge and payback quite quick. Depending on what you spent prior and how well the Pellet stove heats your home (is it insulated well?).
 
Wouldn't fret too much about not finding pellets in your area. I am not too far from you and there
are a bunch of places around that sell em; many year round.
I was a little concerned about potential shortages when I got my first stove - now I have two.;)

Cannot really comment other stove brands, but from my experience I say go for the Harman.
These stoves are built solid and are not finicky over the quality of pellets.

We only turn on the furnace now and then just to make sure it still works.


Do your research and then do some more.
Make sure you are happy with the dealer you purchase from.
If you do purchase a Harman, you will be at the mercy of that dealer if you have any issues with the stove.

Good luck
 
Folkers said:
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I did the wood stove, but ended up replacing the boiler too in time (my house stupidly large).A couple of things I had to consider was is it for money or peace of mind. If you're looking at making a change, start with "how much". A heat loss calculation will tell you what kind of savings you can expect from making the switch. If your heat load is under 50k/hr (not hard to get to in an 800sqft house) a boiler replacement may not pay. Don't get "too" hung up on efficiency, because most afue numbers are fudged (especially if you've got hot water from oil). If you're burning 500 gallons/year an extra 20% is only going to save you 400 bucks.

Do you have natural gas available? If it's there, GET IT. It will be cheap for decades to come, then modcons would be worth the trouble, but then I'd have to ask you where you get your hot water. If no NG then I would go for the pellet stove and get the boiler checked out. If the block/burner are in good shape and you burn <600g/year I'd keep it and go for the pellet stove. However, a common problem if your boiler runs just for HW is it will soot up because the pellet stove takes the load and it never has a chance to get hot. Some may suggest an indirect but I would say no unless your hot water needs are great. I've got an indirect and a "high efficiency" oil boiler and it still kills me to hear it kick on in the Summer. If I had the room for another tank I'd put in a heat pump water heater and use the boiler for backup or peak demand.

Yes to natural gas? Replace the boiler.
No to Natural gas and HW is Oil? Pellet stove and swap over to electric HW (either heat pump or resistance will be cheaper than oil).
Oil/propane only option and boiler is worse than you think? 800 sqft is not a big house. I would seriously consider a small propane boiler (I hate propane) just because the modulating oil burner is something you can't get with residential oil (yet).

Long story short: I wouldn't worry too much about pellet availability. If it was me in my house I'd get the pellet stove and make a long-term project out of getting rid of the oil boiler. Check your heat loss.
 
Weird tolkienish figure said:
I may eat my words, but I just can't see pellet stoves replacing the more relatively effortless options of oil or especially gas.
Click to expand...

Read this true story about how a smart woman took her kids to Disney World with the $1,000 she saved by installing a wood pellet stove in her house that was heated by oil!

http://www.wptz.com/Pellet-Stoves-A-Heating-Alternative/-/8870596/9309778/-/we6w2hz/-/index.html

Like they say after the Super Bowl. See you in Disney World!
 
Folkers said:
Thanks for the feedback....Raynham MA BTW.
It sounds like you have the best of both worlds: A very efficient boiler and a pellet stove to make a serious dent in oil consumption. That's great. Good point too about buying pellets for the season. It's interesting you mention Buderus, my oil burner tech recommended a Buderus. Of course he's going to try and sell me on the Cadillac of boilers as opposed to a Toyota.

The two inserts I was looking at were the Harmon P35I and the Quadra Fire Classic Bay 1200I. With only 800 s.f. to heat, and an open floorplan, these two inserts will work. The previous owner installed a ceiling fan above the fireplace ( I know it looks out of place) in an effort to better distribute the fireplace heat. I was going to take the fan down, but I said, "what the heck", leave it up. I guess it could only help the insert to distribute heat as well.

Thanks again...
Click to expand...

You are welcome.

Good to keep the paddle fan, it will help alot!
I paid about $1200 for the brand new 4 section cast Buderus Boiler assembled at the Londonderry NH plant. That does not included the burner and controls.

Anyway, either of those stoves should heat your house. The quad is a great stove with basic controls. It does work very well in the Auto-On/Off mode using a regular T-Stat. The Harman of course is the better stove with more controls. There is a difference in cost!

I just wrote a story on my web site and the advantages of buying a good used stove. See my story.
http://www.pelletstovemaster.com/1_16_Go-Green-Save-Money.html
 
tinkabranc said:
Your work is performed under warranty?
Click to expand...

When a stove is under warranty at my local stove shop, the parts are free but the labor is not! Usually it is $99 just to show up at the house!

Do you do warranty work Scott?
 
btuser said:
I did the wood stove, but ended up replacing the boiler too in time (my house stupidly large).A couple of things I had to consider was is it for money or peace of mind. If you're looking at making a change, start with "how much". A heat loss calculation will tell you what kind of savings you can expect from making the switch. If your heat load is under 50k/hr (not hard to get to in an 800sqft house) a boiler replacement may not pay. Don't get "too" hung up on efficiency, because most afue numbers are fudged (especially if you've got hot water from oil). If you're burning 500 gallons/year an extra 20% is only going to save you 400 bucks.

Do you have natural gas available? If it's there, GET IT. It will be cheap for decades to come, then modcons would be worth the trouble, but then I'd have to ask you where you get your hot water. If no NG then I would go for the pellet stove and get the boiler checked out. If the block/burner are in good shape and you burn <600g/year I'd keep it and go for the pellet stove. However, a common problem if your boiler runs just for HW is it will soot up because the pellet stove takes the load and it never has a chance to get hot. Some may suggest an indirect but I would say no unless your hot water needs are great. I've got an indirect and a "high efficiency" oil boiler and it still kills me to hear it kick on in the Summer. If I had the room for another tank I'd put in a heat pump water heater and use the boiler for backup or peak demand.

Yes to natural gas? Replace the boiler.
No to Natural gas and HW is Oil? Pellet stove and swap over to electric HW (either heat pump or resistance will be cheaper than oil).
Oil/propane only option and boiler is worse than you think? 800 sqft is not a big house. I would seriously consider a small propane boiler (I hate propane) just because the modulating oil burner is something you can't get with residential oil (yet).

Long story short: I wouldn't worry too much about pellet availability. If it was me in my house I'd get the pellet stove and make a long-term project out of getting rid of the oil boiler. Check your heat loss.
Click to expand...

No NG available. You asked about hot water. It's interesting that the previous owner(s) had an oil fired boiler for heat AND an oil fired burner for hot water. I've noticed that the hot water tank is very well insulated, thus, the hot water tank burner does not run often. I must say it must have been a very unique situation that would cause the previous owner to go with seperate burners instead of a tankless or indirect, but, there must have been a good reason for it. Good point about "payback" factoring in the heat calc. Mine clocked in at under 50K/hr, so the payback on a modcon isn't so great. I was thinking about getting the stove, and leaving the existing oil heat and hot water until I'm force to replace, which I believe is what you're suggesting. After a few seasons with a pellet stove, If I discover that the stove can more than meet my heating needs, I'll probably just go with a cast iron boiler as a replacement

Thanks for your input...
 
I thank everyone for their thoughful input. Some great feedback and links for reading. I wasn't expecting this many posts. I think my mind has been "put at ease" with respect to pellet supply. Amongst the input, someone asked how well the house was insulated. The house is fairly well insulated with the exception of the attic. It's at R19, I'm definitely going to be beefing this up before winter.

This forum's great. Can't put a value on knowledge gained from the sharing of advice, past experience, etc. Good Stuff!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

G
DV fireplace cold draft, options on table
Replies
3
Views
318
It's a Gas!
DAKSY
DAKSY
D
Central Boiler Maxim and burning sludge pellets
Replies
4
Views
1K
The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves
peakbagger
P
Pelletman308
Tractor supply pellets stalling out my stove
Replies
2
Views
2K
2023-2024 Pellet FUEL reviews-opinions-questions
LobsterParty
L
Pelletman308
Pellet shootout! 6 brands tested only one winner
Replies
7
Views
1K
2023-2024 Pellet FUEL reviews-opinions-questions
bogieb
bogieb
D
Central Boiler Maxim and burning sludge pellets
Replies
29
Views
3K
The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces
Jerichan
J
Top Bottom
Back