Getting ready to pull the Trigger

Eatonpcat said:

It's included at the Ford Dealer!

Click to expand...

*Stove Warranty* unless it's Enviro, SBI

Do yourself a favor and buy a multifuel.
There will be burps in supply chain. Buy 2 years out when on sale if you have the storage.
New forms of pellet feedstocks should be coming online in the next 2-5 years which should level out supply burps.

Eatonpcat said:

It's included at the Ford Dealer!

Click to expand...

Ford Motor Company pays their dealers labor for warranty work right?

Don2222 said:

Ford Motor Company pays their dealers labor for warranty work right?

Click to expand...

Yes...That's the way it should be in my opinion!

smwilliamson said:

If a warranty exists, I'll go through a dealer for a part , labor is never included under a warranty.

Click to expand...

unless the stove is repaired by a dealer!

smwilliamson said:

Not true...I help consumers out all the time when dealers use any of their 15 excuses why they cannot help people.

Click to expand...

lol- c'mon, Scott, theres more than 15 reasons!

Eatonpcat said:

Yes...That's the way it should be in my opinion!

Click to expand...

BUT, that Ford dealer, does he do house calls and repair the vehicle in your driveway? How much is a tow? Is that uncluded under warrantee? Ummm....no to both.

Lousyweather said:

BUT, that Ford dealer, does he do house calls and repair the vehicle in your driveway? How much is a tow? Is that uncluded under warrantee? Ummm....no to both.

Click to expand...

In my opinion, A dealer should support their product and honor a warranty...Will you give/install a loaner stove while mine is down waiting for a part??? Ford will give me a loaner car. Sell a quality product and hire a quality installer and whatever the extra cost is should be put into the install/sales price. Try and charge me $200.00 to fix a month old stove and we're gonna have issues.

Tow for me would be covered by AAA

Fix in my driveway...Ummmm...no... Wife wouldn't like the oil spots!!

I have one bag over 12 ton at an average cost of $220.2 per ton sitting in my garage. That should even out any price/supply issues for the next 2.5 to 3 heating seasons for us.

Here in upstate, NY, our local NPR radio station, NCPR (North Country Public Radio), had a lengthy feature on the efforts to jump start the local biomass industry. Part of this feature included an extensive interview with the company based in Massena, NY that manufactures Curran Wood pellets. It was pretty enlightening in that the company was very concerned about the glut of wood pellets now on the market. The owner of the company predicted this glut would be in place for several years. Their sales are far, far below the output of the mill in Massena and he is concerned that he'll be able to continue his operations going forward. Obviously this is one manufacturers predicament, but here in the North Country, we've never had a shortage of wood pellets. Given the low cost of natural gas, I don't see pellets being in short supply anytime soon here in the Northeast at least.

I recently purchased a Harman P61 to replace my old Lopi Foxfire pellet stove in an effort to make wood pellets my primary heat source and make my Utica Hot water boiler my backup. Since it was installed in April of this year, I haven't used it for the VERY cold winters we typically experience here in upstate, NY. Suffice it to say, I'm looking forward to cutting my fuel oil bill significantly for the upcoming heating season. If I were you, I'd buy the Harman insert. As mentioned previously, it's the Cadillac of pellet stoves, and American made as well.

Eatonpcat said:

In my opinion, A dealer should support their product and honor a warranty...Will you give/install a loaner stove while mine is down waiting for a part??? Ford will give me a loaner car. Sell a quality product and hire a quality installer and whatever the extra cost is should be put into the install/sales price. Try and charge me $200.00 to fix a month old stove and we're gonna have issues.

Tow for me would be covered by AAA

Fix in my driveway...Ummmm...no... Wife wouldn't like the oil spots!!

Click to expand...

we often see the comparison between a car and a stove here......the difference being that the warrantee isnt the same, and neither are the products. The stove requires someone to make a house call, convenient to your time and work schedule. With a car, you leave it at the dealer till they finish with it, under their own time constraints. As for a loaner, well, no pellet stove is made as a primary source of heat, so, well, the stove doesnt work? use your electric, oil, or gas. Im also guessing the car company gets a higher dollar figure for their work than the stove dealers get (stove dealers get about $50 total per repair- TOTAL)....I dont know what auto dealers get, but Im sure someone here does and will chime in.

As for dealers honoring and supporting a warranty for a stove that THEY sold....agreed. Given your argument about adding extra cost to the original sale, thats true too, and is the crux of the issue as to why dealers dont tend to cover the warrantee of stoves sold by other dealers. Getting paid $50 for a repair on a stove you didnt sell doesnt even come close to covering the costs associated with the repair. Travel time, insurance, payroll, shipping costs of parts, all eclipse the $50 we are generally paid. Not to mention that "quality techs" tend to cost more.

As for AAA....thats not offered by your car dealer, its an added insurance you choose to buy from a 3rd party, so not necessarily germain to the discussion of warrantt.

I dont think anyone's gonna charge you to fix a month old stove thats broken, but what about a year old stove that hasnt been maintained properly and now wont run, or runs poorly?

Lousyweather said:

we often see the comparison between a car and a stove here......the difference being that the warrantee isnt the same, and neither are the products. The stove requires someone to make a house call, convenient to your time and work schedule. With a car, you leave it at the dealer till they finish with it, under their own time constraints. As for a loaner, well, no pellet stove is made as a primary source of heat, so, well, the stove doesnt work? use your electric, oil, or gas. Im also guessing the car company gets a higher dollar figure for their work than the stove dealers get (stove dealers get about $50 total per repair- TOTAL)....I dont know what auto dealers get, but Im sure someone here does and will chime in.

As for dealers honoring and supporting a warranty for a stove that THEY sold....agreed. Given your argument about adding extra cost to the original sale, thats true too, and is the crux of the issue as to why dealers dont tend to cover the warrantee of stoves sold by other dealers. Getting paid $50 for a repair on a stove you didnt sell doesnt even come close to covering the costs associated with the repair. Travel time, insurance, payroll, shipping costs of parts, all eclipse the $50 we are generally paid. Not to mention that "quality techs" tend to cost more.

As for AAA....thats not offered by your car dealer, its an added insurance you choose to buy from a 3rd party, so not necessarily germain to the discussion of warrantt.

I dont think anyone's gonna charge you to fix a month old stove thats broken, but what about a year old stove that hasnt been maintained properly and now wont run, or runs poorly?

Click to expand...

Well said LW!

My only issue is your last sentence....Why for free in a month and charge in month 10 (To me the warranty period should be the line)? Where is the line?
If the reason for the repair is a stove that was not cared for per instruction manual then the warranty should be void.

Lousyweather said:

lol- c'mon, Scott, theres more than 15 reasons!

Click to expand...

count them for me...and they need to unique

most of these warranty calls are completely avoided when the dealer sells a quality product, completely understands his product inside and out, takes measures to make sure it is installed properly, truly cares about service and his customer and takes measures to properly educate the end user...when all of those things are done...everyday, then the manufacturers warranty really becomes a little added insurance....

Lots of dealers hide behind these warranties during a sale and then complain about them when they (the dealer) is exposed as an incompetent business owner.

Personally, I think manufacturers ought to enforce the service aspect of the business and just promote a dealer-wide guarantee such as the case with LL Bean. If you aren't happy, for any reason, , neither are we.

Eatonpcat said:

Well said LW!

My only issue is your last sentence....Why for free in a month and charge in month 10 (To me the warranty period should be the line)? Where is the line?
If the reason for the repair is a stove that was not cared for per instruction manual then the warranty should be void.

Click to expand...

The line drawn is where the warranty actually runs out, depending on the unit. Usually, if theres a failure in a month or so, its not gonna be maintenance, but either the install or a part failure, and covered.......as for month 10 or so, well, that could be a maintenance issue......could be a part too......but if the tech comes out and finds out you havent cleaned the unit atfer a year and its not running, its not covered under warranty, and the service charge should apply. Lack of maintenance doesnt void the warrantee per se, but if the problem arose due to lack of cleaning, then yea, its not covered.

Im kinda anile about warrantees.....if its under warrantee, great, but if its a week over, sorry, Charlie!

smwilliamson said:

count them for me...and they need to unique

Click to expand...

endless Scott, endless! most likely none are unique........
1. its 2 am and we arent open to help you
2. we have to order the part, and you need it NOW
3. we are busy and you arent willing to wait your turn
4. you have an unreasonable expectation as to what "help" is
5. "im NOT paying THAT much for that part!"
6. "I'll be da**ed if Im paying you for any service call with all the business I give you" (who IS this guy, anyways?)
7. noone was home when we tried to service the stove you made the appointment for
8. noone at the dealer spoke your native language, Aramaic
9. you havent paid for that LAST service call
10. your last credit card sale or check bounced
11. you are only available for service during lunar eclipses where the month ends in Q, and only then when the weather is good
12. we dont sell, and have never sold, your stove or parts
13. .........

smwilliamson said:

most of these warranty calls are completely avoided when the dealer sells a quality product, completely understands his product inside and out, takes measures to make sure it is installed properly, truly cares about service and his customer and takes measures to properly educate the end user...when all of those things are done...everyday, then the manufacturers warranty really becomes a little added insurance....

Lots of dealers hide behind these warranties during a sale and then complain about them when they (the dealer) is exposed as an incompetent business owner.

Personally, I think manufacturers ought to enforce the service aspect of the business and just promote a dealer-wide guarantee such as the case with LL Bean. If you aren't happy, for any reason, , neither are we.

Click to expand...

Agreed on pretty much everything above......in order for the dealer-wide guarantee part to work, there would have to be a substantial change in the amount paid for that work. Otherwise, some dealers wouldnt provide service, or GOOD service, because its a money-loser for them....they'd just slough it off to other dealers.....and yea, it happens. We actually get a goodly amount of service work from our competition, as the customer doesnt want to wait 2 months for work to be done.....go figure...they'd rather pay us for the labor than wait a stupid amount of time for their "dealer" to honor his warantee obligations (yea, we still do the parts under warrantee, just not the labor)

Lousyweather said:

endless Scott, endless! most likely none are unique........
1. its 2 am and we arent open to help you
2. we have to order the part, and you need it NOW
3. we are busy and you arent willing to wait your turn
4. you have an unreasonable expectation as to what "help" is
5. "im NOT paying THAT much for that part!"
6. "I'll be da**ed if Im paying you for any service call with all the business I give you" (who IS this guy, anyways?)
7. noone was home when we tried to service the stove you made the appointment for
8. noone at the dealer spoke your native language, Aramaic
9. you havent paid for that LAST service call
10. your last credit card sale or check bounced
11. you are only available for service during lunar eclipses where the month ends in Q, and only then when the weather is good
12. we dont sell, and have never sold, your stove or parts
13. .........

Click to expand...

hahaah

Lousyweather said:

Agreed on pretty much everything above......in order for the dealer-wide guarantee part to work, there would have to be a substantial change in the amount paid for that work. Otherwise, some dealers wouldnt provide service, or GOOD service, because its a money-loser for them....they'd just slough it off to other dealers.....and yea, it happens. We actually get a goodly amount of service work from our competition, as the customer doesnt want to wait 2 months for work to be done.....go figure...they'd rather pay us for the labor than wait a stupid amount of time for their "dealer" to honor his warantee obligations (yea, we still do the parts under warrantee, just not the labor)

Click to expand...

Sure, here's the solution. The manufacturer cuts back on the margin on sales and pays an appropriate labor rate. The problem is that dealers actually make too much at the point of sale..with an understanding that the profit needs to to be dog eared to pay for warranty work if any should arise. So, fine...if thats how its going to be, all dealers should be held to the same standard. I have a friend that is a platnium HHT dealer his second year selling stoves and still does not have any NFI Certified employees, none of them are dealer trained (yet), and none of them are licensed to install or service in the State of MA where all of his business is. But he has a beautiful showroom on a main route....

I may be getting off topic from the OP's thread...sorry.

smwilliamson said:

Sure, here's the solution. The manufacturer cuts back on the margin on sales and pays an appropriate labor rate. The problem is that dealers actually make too much at the point of sale..with an understanding that the profit needs to to be dog eared to pay for warranty work if any should arise. So, fine...if thats how its going to be, all dealers should be held to the same standard. I have a friend that is a platnium HHT dealer his second year selling stoves and still does not have any NFI Certified employees, none of them are dealer trained (yet), and none of them are licensed to install or service in the State of MA where all of his business is. But he has a beautiful showroom on a main route....

I may be getting off topic from the OP's thread...sorry.

Click to expand...

at the risk of derailing the original post, evenso, many stove companies actually have written into the dealer agreement that you cannot sell at less than a certain percentage below MSRP, that you cant sell stoves or parts thru an online presence, etc......so, there is a certain "floor" we cant go below....trying to keep the brand profitable and not cheapen it, I guess. As for making too much at point of sale, well, I dunno about that one....thats a slippery slope to argue, as dealers dont necessarily have the same operating costs, etc. Beautiful showrooms cost a beautiful amount of money.
Definitely dealers should be held to the same standard! But, they arent. The measure of a dealer may be largely due to the amount they sell, and this does not necessarily reflect their acumen in the line, or their level of service, rather, it most often is reflected in their sales area, or the size of it. Sad, really.
Its nice to have NFI certs (its only a test after an 8 hour course....NOT impressed, and yes, we are NFI cert'd, as for dealer training, SO FAR, any of the dealer training Ive seen has been sufficient to train up a new tech, but anyone who has been out there for a bit likely ont come away with much, or anything. As for licensing, while required, it isnt the measure of a quality tech, just rather the fact that they sent a check to the state for the license.
Experience is important........

Lousyweather said:

at the risk of derailing the original post, evenso, many stove companies actually have written into the dealer agreement that you cannot sell at less than a certain percentage below MSRP, that you can sell stoves or parts thru an online presence, etc......so, there is a certain "floor" we cant go below....trying to keep the brand profitable and not cheapen it, I guess. As for making too much at point of sale, well, I dunno about that one....thats a slippery slope to argue, as dealers dont necessarily have the same operating costs, etc. Beautiful showrooms cost a beautiful amount of money.
Definitely dealers should be held to the same standard! But, they arent. The measure of a dealer may be largely due to the amount they sell, and this does not necessarily reflect their acumen in the line, or their level of service, rather, it most often is reflected in their sales area, or the size of it. Sad, really.
Its nice to have NFI certs (its only a test after an 8 hour course....NOT impressed, and yes, we are NFI cert'd, as for dealer training, SO FAR, any of the dealer training Ive seen has been sufficient to train up a new tech, but anyone who has been out there for a bit likely ont come away with much, or anything. As for licensing, while required, it isnt the measure of a quality tech, just rather the fact that they sent a check to the state for the license.
Experience is important........

Click to expand...

It wouldn't be all that difficult to measure compitence if NFI would create a Standard instead of a Certification and then have it accredited. Back to the auto dealers again...there are several independent standards that have accreditation. The thing is...NFI is largely underwritten by the manufacturers and the manufacturers would rather not be held to a standard unless it is their own.

You guys both sound like great dealers, So far, my dealer has totally stepped up to the plate. This being said, I have not had any issues with my stove since they dialed it in. after that, I will be begging Mad Dog for help if something goes wrong! I would beg you other dudes also,ut I can't afford the gas money to get you to Cleveland
\
Just an edit...I mayhave had tooo many beers, not sure what happened to my font!!

I quit!

smwilliamson said:

If a warranty exists, I'll go through a dealer for a part , labor is never included under a warranty.

Click to expand...

I thought my BOSCA warranty actually said parts and labor for two years....thats how my local dealer handled it anyway, so either its in the warranty or my dealer is a better one...

Folkers said:

Hello all,

Wanted to get some thoughts from the group. I bought a small ranch last November, 800 sq ft with an open floor plan, and a separate flue for working fireplace. This is an ideal situation for a pellet stove insert. Existing main source of heat is oil fired hot water boiler. Boiler is terribly inefficient (67%). I was giving serious consideration to buying a pellet stove insert before throwing money at a new boiler. I know I'll eventually have to replace the boiler, but for now it still works OK. So, here's my concern: I'm concerned that demand for wood pellets will outstrip supply, and people that have pellet stoves will be SOL. Did anyone have the same concern before buying a pellet stove? Can anyone share their thoughts about the overall pellet supply going forward? I recently got a quote of $3,600 +/- for a pellet insert. I'm at a place where I could either throw money towards a pellet stove, or throw money towards an efficient boiler (modcons I think they call them). The modcons are significantly higher in price than your standard cast iron boiler. I just hate the thought of being at the mercy of big oil.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

The other nasty thing to consider is that you will always need a 'non-solid' heating source for your house if you want to sell your house and the mortgage bank requires an evaluation. Here in NY its not possible to legally convert our house to pellts only (or wood stove only)...needs oil or Pain or NG (not sure about geothermal). stupid but thats what I was told...

aside, no shortage of pellets visible any time soon, with the energy tax credit gone the stove bonanza seems over as well...so looking good. However, pellet stove needs cleaning once a year, if you dont do yourself it adds fixed costs. WIth your house size you might not burn much pellets, so you have some overhead cost to consider.

ANy chance for a free standing, I have an insert and happy with it due to space rstrictions - but otherwise free standing would be my preferred (actually I would go with a wood stove if I would do it again)

If you are interested in money spent only, a coal stove is actually dirt cheap (pun intended) other wise its usually NG>Coal>Pellet/wood>oil>electricity