I need a new Furnace

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justanothercub

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Aug 17, 2012
32
Hi everyone, I'll share a little about myself and then ask my question at the end.

I live in upstate NY north of Utica, my wife and I are getting ready to move into a new house in about 2 months. In our current home we have a tarm. I basically built the entire system from the ground up. The house we are moving to has forced air/oil. The most expensive setup for NY winters.

What I need help with is, who makes a well built wood furnace in the 120-150btu range? Correct me if I am wrong, but with a forced air unit you want to get the hot air either up through the duct work our out into the room it is in. Unlike a wood boiler that you want to keep all the heat concentrated to the water.

The furnace would be located in the basement ( which is insulated ) which is directly below the kitchen and living room.

Thanks
 
If your looking for something in that range, a Max Caddy by PSG will be the largest clean burning forced air furnace. It's not EPA certified, but B415 certified (clean air standard for Canada). There are many other clean burning furnaces, but that's the largest I know. I would look into a heat loss calculation to size the furnace correctly. 120,000 to 150,000 btus is alot of heat for a home. We have the smaller brother of the Max Caddy and its a well built furnace. The max caddy has a few features our furnace doesn't have like an optional water heater, modulating blower based on plenum temps, and outdoor air kit. Any furnace will produce radiant heat which normally heats the basement, from there the jacket around the firebox and secondary heat exchanger will heat the home. One thing I like with our furnace like the max caddy is the glass door. I dont have to bother opening things up to check on the fire. The Max Caddy like burns like a secondary combustion stove with a firebox that's insulated with secondary burn tubes. With a firebox around 4.5 cu ft it's a big boy when it comes to heating.
 
If your looking for something in that range, a Max Caddy by PSG will be the largest clean burning forced air furnace. It's not EPA certified, but B415 certified (clean air standard for Canada). There are many other clean burning furnaces, but that's the largest I know. I would look into a heat loss calculation to size the furnace correctly. 120,000 to 150,000 btus is alot of heat for a home. We have the smaller brother of the Max Caddy and its a well built furnace. The max caddy has a few features our furnace doesn't have like an optional water heater, modulating blower based on plenum temps, and outdoor air kit. Any furnace will produce radiant heat which normally heats the basement, from there the jacket around the firebox and secondary heat exchanger will heat the home. One thing I like with our furnace like the max caddy is the glass door. I dont have to bother opening things up to check on the fire. The Max Caddy like burns like a secondary combustion stove with a firebox that's insulated with secondary burn tubes. With a firebox around 4.5 cu ft it's a big boy when it comes to heating.


I will be taking another walk through the new house and I am going to see what size furnace is currently installed, that should give me a better idea. I did find a Englander 28-3500 which like the " max caddy" has a glass door and is rated for a 3000sqf home.
 
Englander makes a good budget furnace. It's one of better units that are lower in price. I understand they are rated up to 3000 sq ft, but take into consideration the small opening on top and the small blower. If the home is open and there's not alot of ductwork then that may be okay. I have always been skeptical when it came to their claims due to the design of the firejacket, but I'm sure it works well for many people. If your looking for something more efficient then you will want a true secondary combustion and a secondary heat exchanger. Furnace's like the Kuuma vapor fire, PSG Caddy, Napoleon and Blaze Kings Apex will be much more efficient, but come with a hefty price tag (worth it IMHO). Unfortunately those furnaces may not fall within your heating requirements. There are many benefits to a more efficient unit and that's less chimney sweeping, less wood and more heat. Could you give some details of your home like size, age, etc.
 
Englander makes a good budget furnace. It's one of better units that are lower in price. I understand they are rated up to 3000 sq ft, but take into consideration the small opening on top and the small blower. If the home is open and there's not alot of ductwork then that may be okay. I have always been skeptical when it came to their claims due to the design of the firejacket, but I'm sure it works well for many people. If your looking for something more efficient then you will want a true secondary combustion and a secondary heat exchanger. Furnace's like the Kuuma vapor fire, PSG Caddy, Napoleon and Blaze Kings Apex will be much more efficient, but come with a hefty price tag (worth it IMHO). Unfortunately those furnaces may not fall within your heating requirements. There are many benefits to a more efficient unit and that's less chimney sweeping, less wood and more heat. Could you give some details of your home like size, age, etc.

Englander makes a good budget furnace. It's one of better units that are lower in price. I understand they are rated up to 3000 sq ft, but take into consideration the small opening on top and the small blower. If the home is open and there's not alot of ductwork then that may be okay. I have always been skeptical when it came to their claims due to the design of the firejacket, but I'm sure it works well for many people. If your looking for something more efficient then you will want a true secondary combustion and a secondary heat exchanger. Furnace's like the Kuuma vapor fire, PSG Caddy, Napoleon and Blaze Kings Apex will be much more efficient, but come with a hefty price tag (worth it IMHO). Unfortunately those furnaces may not fall within your heating requirements. There are many benefits to a more efficient unit and that's less chimney sweeping, less wood and more heat. Could you give some details of your home like size, age, etc.



I took a look at those manufactures that you listed. I like the PSG Max Caddy and the Napolean HMF150, because they have a glass window to view the fire. The Kuuma 200 seems like a nice unit.

As someone that is buying a house my liquid cash is a little dry. I would hope that when we move in I can sell the Oneida Royal 120RBA3 that is only a couple years old. But since we will be moving in around late October not having a furnace will be kind of hard. A friend of mine is a great contractor and I am going to ask him what he would charger to install an external chimney. The current furnace has a power vent ( and as we all know, that wont work with wood ).


If there was an external chimney I would spring for the PSG Caddy Max. But since the chimney with install will set me back atleast $2k. I am kind off in a tough spot.
 
If on a budget then the englander is a good furnace. A us stove wood furnace which tractor supply carries heated this home for 25 years. Not the greatest, but got the job done. Other furnaces like the Daka are also another option. Even if the furnace won't cover 100% of the heating load, it will save a ton of money. Welcome to hearth.com, there's alot of good information and there's others here that can help you with what your looking for.
 
I took a look at those manufactures that you listed. I like the PSG Max Caddy and the Napolean HMF150, because they have a glass window to view the fire. The Kuuma 200 seems like a nice unit.

As someone that is buying a house my liquid cash is a little dry. I would hope that when we move in I can sell the Oneida Royal 120RBA3 that is only a couple years old. But since we will be moving in around late October not having a furnace will be kind of hard. A friend of mine is a great contractor and I am going to ask him what he would charger to install an external chimney. The current furnace has a power vent ( and as we all know, that wont work with wood ).


If there was an external chimney I would spring for the PSG Caddy Max. But since the chimney with install will set me back atleast $2k. I am kind off in a tough spot.
For your house I would go with the Kuuma 100 as it is bigger than the 200!
 
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Do some research on the Kuuma Vapor-Fire Wood Gasification Furnaces:

.45 Gr/HR. Emissions
.01 Gr/MJ. Emissions
99.4% Combustion Efficiency
84% Overall Efficiency
99% Smokeless Burns

What I need to know about BTU ratings?


A lot of people are mixed up on the BTU's required to heat a home because oil and gas furnaces do no run steady hour after hour. If they did you'd spend $20,000/yr. to heat a home. As it is some people are spending over $4000/yr. to heat their homes. They cycle on and off. Your BTU needs are delivered intermittently. If your home is poorly insulated, or if for some reason you let it cool down, your oil and gas furnace would then run steady. Generally, a furnace rated at 100,000 BTU/hr. runs from 1/4 to 1/3 of an hour on the coldest of MN. days delivering about 30 to 40,000 BTU's/hr. to maintain a comfortable heat level for your home, i.e. 70 degrees F. Most people feel cool in their homes in between the on and off cycles of the oil and gas furnaces, therefore many people prefer wood heat because it's continuous.
Now, heating a home with our KuumaVapor-Fire furnaces is really special because they deliver very even continuous heat hour after hour. They don't smolder the wood and then blast the wood (the two extremes) like other wood furnaces. Instead, its unique automatic draft system avoids these extremes with a continuous front to back burn pattern that allows the user to adjust the burn rate, which in turn varies the BTU output. In mild weather you use a low setting for 15-25,000 BTU's/hr., in moderate weather a medium setting for 25-45,000 BTU's/hr., and in cold weather a high setting for 45-60,000 BTU's / hr. It adjusts simply by turning the knob on the computer from low to high and anywhere in between. Most people never go above the medium setting all winter long.
Keep in mind that all wood has the same # of BTU's pound for pound. The heavier more dense wood (oak, hickory, maple) have more available BTU's/piece than the lighter less dense wood such as poplar and pine, only because each piece weighs more. Every pound of wood that is 100% dry has approximately 8,600 BTU's /pound. Say for instance your home needed 100,000 BTU's/hr. to heat, it would take 11.6 pounds/hr. of 100% dry wood to heat it. Now, if your wood has a 20% moisture content, each pound of wood has only 6,880 BTU's in it (it's 8600 x .80). Then if your wood furnace is only 60% overall efficient, your BTU's would only be 4,128 BTU's/pound (that's 6,880x.60). This would result in a ridiculous amount of wood, 24.2 pounds/hr., to get the needed 100,000 BTU's/hr. In a 24 hr. period that would mean 576 pounds of wood needed for 100,000 BTU's/hr after hr. This would result in probably more than 20 cords of wood to heat your home for one winter. It makes more sense to say that most homes in the coldest of weather only use the 30-40,000 BTU's/hr and probably use 7-10 cords of wood/season to heat their homes. With our KuumaVapor-Fire furnaces that are 84% overall efficient and 99% combustion efficient most people use only 3-5 cords of wood to heat their home/season and that's what makes our furnace very special. To top if off we also have the clean burn of less than 1 gr. emissions/hr.

Mention Hearth.com and receive $100 discount on new furnace orders.
 
I burn a Daka and have not had any problems with it. I will say though, that if I could do things over I would have saved money for another year and bought a furnace that had a secondary burn. Kuuma, PSG, Blaze King, Yukon....... The Daka keeps us warm, but I hate cleaning the chimney three times a season.
 
That was a good read, thanks. I did a little more research and finally found the manual for the oil/air furnace currently in the house. The Oneida Royal 120RBA3 has a 90.3mbh output which is 90,000btu's if im not mistaken. That being said the owner has to fill his 275 gallon tank 3.5 times a winter and they keep the house at 70, but alot off variables have to be taken into account ( how many times a day are the doors opened, whats there definition of 70 ie where is the thermostat located in relation to a floor vent ). For my wife keep our current home ( not insulated very well ) at 68 and i we leave in the morning and the house sits empty other then two dogs till the evening when we come home.

As for insulation I have to ask about that, but the space between the top of the basement wall and the floor joists are all sprayed with green foam, same stuff that I insulated my water storage tank at my current house with.

All that said I think that 100kk btu furnace should suffice.
 
I'm in Clinton.

I've never owned one of their furnaces, but Marathon (Log Wood) out of western New York makes pretty good boilers, so I assume the furnaces they make are also well made. Just a suggestion of one made close by. Wood gasification is certainly the way to go if you can fit it in the budget.
 
The Garn is a cool unit, with the horizontal exhaust... but dang 3,000lb dry weight lol, its also a boiler so that wouldn't work anyway.
 
The Garn is a cool unit, with the horizontal exhaust... but dang 3,000lb dry weight lol, its also a boiler so that wouldn't work anyway.

Well, you can run a water-to-air heat exchanger with a boiler, and they're not very expensive nor complicated, but a Garn is way more boiler than you need or want. If you like the idea of running a boiler, a smaller model with a heat exchanger would certainly be an option for you. Then you could store heat in a tank, too.
 
I burn a Daka and have not had any problems with it. I will say though, that if I could do things over I would have saved money for another year and bought a furnace that had a secondary burn. Kuuma, PSG, Blaze King, Yukon....... The Daka keeps us warm, but I hate cleaning the chimney three times a season.
I owned a Yukon for 13 years and I got sick of cleaning the chimney to. It does not burn clean at all. My new Kuuma burns cleaner than I thought possible for a wood furnace. No creosote whatsoever. Threw away the chimney brush!!!
 
I owned a Yukon for 13 years and I got sick of cleaning the chimney to. It does not burn clean at all. My new Kuuma burns cleaner than I thought possible for a wood furnace. No creosote whatsoever. Threw away the chimney brush!!!
I definitely don't like the idea of a forced draft unit like the Yukons, but that is just theory for me. I've never used one before. Kuuma and PSG are high on my list to check out when it comes time to buy new.
 
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Well, you can run a water-to-air heat exchanger with a boiler, and they're not very expensive nor complicated, but a Garn is way more boiler than you need or want. If you like the idea of running a boiler, a smaller model with a heat exchanger would certainly be an option for you. Then you could store heat in a tank, too.

My current boiler I built a storage tank for it and it works great. My problem with the new house, is that the only entrance to the basement is inside the house. I plan on building a small 2'x2' trap door in the side of my house so I can load wood into the basement.
 
OK you Apex-CBT owners, chime in about clean chimneys, vastly less wood use due to catalytic combustion, (sorry no glass door) and the superb efficiency (90.7% LHV) and real world HHV % of 87.2%

What counts is not heat output, but heat delivered!!!

Chris
 
Well guys I did some calling around yesterday afternoon. And I think I will be going with the PSG Caddy. The guy I talked to said that I can add the " oil add on " part down the road, it doesn't need to be installed when its brand new. So that right there took me from a $6k furnace down to a $3,500 furnace. Much more affordable, not cheap by any means, but its a brand new furnace with new technology. So even if the new house is as drafty and crappily insulated like our current home I will definitely not burn 30 face cord of wood a winter. The only tricky thing will be hooking the duct work up, not sure how thats going to work.
 
ahh geez guys now im starting to question my decision.

What are the benefits of the boiler with a water to air heat exchanger? I had all but made up my mind about the Caddy furnace, then I started thinking that most likley down the road I will want to put radiators in the house, because I prefer that heat.
 
ahh geez guys now im starting to question my decision.

What are the benefits of the boiler with a water to air heat exchanger? I had all but made up my mind about the Caddy furnace, then I started thinking that most likley down the road I will want to put radiators in the house, because I prefer that heat.

For starter a boiler will allow you to use storage. That way you won't be a slave to the furnace having to fill it every xxx number of hours.

A boiler with storage and radiators would be much more efficient than a wood furnace I'd imagine.

Might be hard to get a boiler in the basement with no bulkhead though.
 
For example regarding a boilers weight. My Solo in our current house weighed a lot ( I cant remember what it actually weighed after removing everything I could ). But lets say a EKO 40 how much weight can your strip off it's ( 1390lbs )? If I could get it down in the 800lb range then I would have a fighting chance, or is it because a boiler is simply two furnaces in one body ( because of the water jacket )?

I'll do some digging, but if the Caddy can run from 7am to 6pm and maintain 68 in the new house ( yes I know there are a million variables to be taken into consideration ), then I would be happy.

As I am writing this, I am also searching boilers and I just came across a Vedolux 30 boiler which weighs in at 639lbs. Looks like I have more research to do today.
 
I too have built a new cabin in woods i have used a longwood combin wood and natural gas forced air for 25yrs I bought the same wood burner used it has a 5ft hot air chamber that i want to heat water in 60ft of copper coils just wanted some feed back have 6 300ft zones that i used a elect hot water to heat last winter to much$ need to preheat water before going to hwh will install register in top with controller to open at certain temp thanks for any help
 
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