Getting wood stove, have questions.

The 30 in a 500 sq ft room will burn you out of there. If putting up a new chimney on the outside it will need to be class A which is triple wall insulated all the way up this is to avoid a cold flue condition which will cause creosote problems. the chimney will cost more than the stove. trying to rely on heat rise up the stairs to warm the first floor is not going to work out well. Stoves are area space heaters. The old practice of a hole through the floor for heat rise is generally against code ( insurance and your local inspector will have problems with that)The 30 is rated at close to 2000sq ft, way over kill in 500.

Now as to wood, Unless the seller is kiln drying the wood, it most likely not going to be of the proper moisture content (less than 20% checked on a fresh split inside face) Laying around in rounds or log form for a year or so does not season wood here in WI. or anywhere else for that matter ( well maybe in Death Valley) Once in a while you might find a seller that really has wood that has been split and stacked for at least one year but that is going to be at a very high price ( SE Wi prices per cord are all ready in the $225 cord area for just about anything) so for your first year I would get a ton of the compressed wood bricks to mix with whatever splits you purchase. (Menards has them)You will need, with the 30 running it 24/7, about 4-6 cords depending on the type of wood for the season

Insulation in Attic Add 12-18". What are your windows like? still the originals ? If so double glazed replacements are in order, but stay away from the Vinyl units they tend to shrink and leak like sieves after a couple years. The replacement sash units ( wood framed) ( much less expensive than a whole window) work very well again available from Menards, I did all my windows ( 14) for right around $5k installed about 3 years ago.

If you are in the 414 or 262 area codes I would be happy to help you via phone ( so much to discuss to much to type) Course with the cells it doesn't matter as much if you would like give me a call at 414-354-0707 my shop, ( not a stove seller or insulation or related)

To give you an idea of what is possible my place built in 1960, 2000sq ft ranch combined electric gas bills during the heating season seldom exceed $90 dollars total and a third or more of that is all their add on charges. running a 30NC on main floor. Best wishes in your quest, Chris

I think the key to saving money with wood is free or low cost firewood. I have no idea what compressed firewood bricks costs, but I imagine that once you add that into firewood that costs $225 a cord you'll be pushing the price of NG pretty hard.

I have NG heat and this will be my first year burning wood. From the numbers I've run, it won't make much sense for me to buy wood. High BTU hardwood comes out at around 130000 BTUs/dollar, assuming $200 a cord. NG gas comes in somewhere around 90000 BTUs/dollar. That looks like 30% savings, but once you take into consideration the fact that the gas boiler or furnace is going to be more efficient (probably around 10% ?) and that with a wood stove you will most likely have to heat one area to a much warmer temperature than you would with central heating I feel that the numbers get pretty close. There's probably still a little money to be saved using the wood and each situation is different. I understand that there are other aspects involved in the choice to burn wood, this is just something to consider. If you get started finding free wood now, you should really be able to cut back your costs next year.

My seasoned firewood will be somewhat limited this year. I'll have plenty next year. I have about 1 1/2 to 2 cords that will be ready at the start of the heating season. This year I'll burn what is dry, learn how to use the stove, and save a little money. I figure I'll really be able to save money next year though.

ROVERT said:

I think the key to saving money with wood is free or low cost firewood. .

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I should clarify that first sentence. I'm talking about in comparison to natural gas. I your alternative is oil or propane at somewhere around 40,000 BTU's/dollar, it is obviously a lot easier to save with wood.

kipp438 said:

Greetings!

I have been reading many threads on this site and have been learning a lot. My wife and I are going have our basement finished and we would like a wood stove installed, and we have a lot of questions. I'd like to let you experienced folks know our ideas of how we would like to use our wood stove, and our current basic setup, and get some comments and suggestions.

I live in a split entry home in WI, built in 1976. I grew up in this house and purchased it from my mother about 10 years ago. When I was a kid, we used to heat the house mainly with a wood furnace and fuel oil for backup. I remember as a teen feeding the big beast in the basement, but I really do not have much experience with wood heat. My mother had natural gas installed in 1994 and had the wood furnace removed. The house is not well insulated, it is not terrible by any means, but it just feels cool and drafty in the winter. I plan to blow in some attic insulation this fall, which I expect to make a big difference over just the original 1976 batts.

The house is just under 1200 sq ft upstairs where all of the living area currently is. 8ft ceiling. The basement is half garage (under the bedrooms), and the other half is unfinished basement (under the living/dining/kitchen area). We are planning to finish the basement part to add almost 500sq ft of livable space, a family room. For a total of about 1700sq ft of space. The reasons for getting a wood burning stove are, to supplement our gas heat to save money, be able to heat our house to warmer temps without the gas furnace running steady, to be able to heat our house sufficiently if we lose power, and simply for the coziness of the visible flames in the new room.

I plan on installing a new stainless chimney straight up, as our old brick chimney is not anywhere close to where we would like our stove.

I have been reading reviews and looking at prices. I like the Englander 30 for good reviews it gets, and the price, $899 shipped from Home Depot. I also like the looks of it with the legs. I am open to spending a more on a different stove if it will make us happier with our wood heating experience, but we probably would start getting uncomfortable if it gets too much over $1500-1600 or so (for the stove). I plan on purchasing split/seasoned hardwood, at least the first year or two.

I am worried the 30 is going to turn the basement into a kiln and not let us enjoy the new space, but I would hope enough heat would go up the stairs to avoid that. I would also like to cut a couple vents in upstairs floor for more heat flow. I called Englander and asked them their recommendation for my situation and the gentleman suggested the 30. (over the 13)

How "involved" is it going to be to maintain a fire? I mean, I don't have a problem being patient building a good fire, but after reading many posts I'm nervous I'm going to load an overnight fire only to wake up in the middle of the night to either a glowing red inferno box of hell, or the opposite, a cold box of unburned wood. I realize it will take some getting used to my own stove and how it runs, but I think it will be a long time coming before I can load the stove and go to bed confident it will do what I want. I think the point I'm trying to make is I would like a fairly user friendly stove. Not one that I'm going to have to babysit every half hour.

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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Welcome Kipp to the Hearth forums !

Fist off if your putting a stove in the basement the heat will dissipate out the walls very quickly so you will need a larger stove like the 30 to do a good job and get the heat upstairs. As for wood be sure to dry it at least 1 year 2 if possible I can't stress this part enough ! since we started drying longer our heat life and burn times have gone way up as well as our chimney is much much cleaner. You would still need a liner if you used the brick chimney and you DO NOT want to hook your stove into the same flue as the bass furnace it can be very explosive. A new chimney would be the way to go. Englander is really about the best for the price and there customer service is great. The reason for the 30 over the 13 in a basement is really heat dissipation you need the power of the 30 to heat the upstairs on cold nights and can always make a smaller fire for warmer nights and days.

Maintaining a fire is very easy once you get used to the air controls and actually is very fun. I just build a small pile of kindling and put a few splits on top let it get going then slowly build it up. Once its going thats our coal bed for the winter and we just rake the hot coals to the front and load the stove with large splits pack the gaps with small splits let it get going set the air and thats it for 12-14 hours depending on the type of wood. You should not have to baby sit the stove every hour unless your doing something wrong or have a bad stove setup. Again do not burn wet wood ( under a year dry ) . Be very careful when you buy wood get a cheap moister meter and test the wood in the middle of the stack your about to buy. You want it to be under 20 % moister if possible. Do not believe it is to dry the air has relative humidity and that means there is always moister in the wood which is needed in small amounts to burn properly.

This is the caution part most sellers will say o ya its been dry for a year and you will wind up with a sopping wet load of wood. There is a difference between split and dry and log dry. They will buy log length let it set for six months cut it up and tell you its a year dry because it was cut down 1 year ago. That is not dry ! You will need to buy it and let it set for at least six more months minimum to have it dry enough for your needs. Chimney fires happen from creosote usually because your burning wood that is to wet or you have not cleaned your chimney in to long. As for eco blocks compressed logs they are good in there own way and many people burn them. I tried and discovered for a long night burn they are great to mix in with wood but they are way to dry because they are kiln dried then wrapped so they stay very very dry. This causes them to burn extremely hot and can easily get to hot if your not careful. For that reason I won't be using them again as well as I have a ready access of wood around my area. I know I just dumped a lot of info I hope it helps and I did not confuse you.

Also here is a good map to check out with heating r values and general info you can use to pick a stove.
http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/

Pete

Here are a couple other good stoves as well

This is a good company to buy from as well Woodland direct they have amazing customer service and free lift gate delivery to your door as well.

Drolet Eastwood
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...-Eastwood-1800-High-Efficiency-EPA-Wood-Stove

Osburn 1600 ( its a good looker too lol )
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...-Medium-1500-2000-sqft/Osburn-1600-Wood-Stove

Welcome to Hearth.com.

A few random thoughts . . .

1970s home: Like you I bought and live in a 1970s vintage home. Tightening things up by chaulking, insulating and changing out windows is always a good idea as homes from these time periods often benefit from some additional insulating . . . and my own philosophy is that regardless of how you heat your home it's always nice to keep the heat inside where it can warm you vs. outside where it warms the squirrels.

Reasons for a woodstove: You've listed a lot of good reasons ranging from the visual appeal, having supplemental heat in the event of a power loss, helping to keep the costs of the gas down and the comfortable heat that a woodstove brings . . . all very good reasons.

Englander: The Englander is generally regarded here as a fantastic value that is only surpassed by its reputation for excellent customer service. You will see very few folks here at hearth.com who are disappointed in their Englander woodstoves.

The basement: As mentioned some folks have had varying degrees of success with basement installations -- the key being whether the room is well insulated . . . and in some cases whether you are looking to heat the entire home or just the immediate room. Personally, I subscribe to the idea of putting the woodstove in the room where you plan to spend most of your time -- you will get the most benefit there by feeling the heat more directly and you'll be able to monitor it more closely.

Keeping the place warm, but not hellaciously hot: The key here is sizing the stove to the home . . . and learning how to reload the stove properly. Knowing when to reload (and when to let the heat just radiate off the stove), what to load the stove with (lower value wood vs. higher BTU value wood) and how much wood to put into the firebox are learned in time . . . but once you learn this you can keep the heat at a relatively consistent temp and not end up being too cold or too hot in the room with the woodstove (unless you mess up like I typically do once a year -- usually in the Fallv -- when I get over zealous and too excited and reload the stove one too many times or put in too much wood when all I need is a single fire or single reload with some low BTU wood to get the chill out of the air . . . fortunately fans and windows are handy.)

Maintaining the fire: Maintaining a fire is a learned skill . . . but it's not that hard to learn (trust me, if a dumb firefighter like myself can do so, you can as well.) The key to making sure you don't have a slow, smoldering, half-dead fire not giving off any heat or waking up to find a glowing, red stove in your living room is time . . . or time management. Running a woodstove is not as simple as turning up the thermostat on the wall and heading to bed. Rather . . . you cannot safely or efficiently start a fire 10 minutes before you leave for work or 20 minutes before you go to bed . . . you have to be more patient and give yourself enough time to get the fire started and then in "cruising" mode before you leave it unattended . . . in time you will learn to "read" your stove by the way the flames look, the temps and where your air control is set and will be able to safely go to bed and have pleasant dreams . . . but learning this takes time . . . and it takes time to get the stove "settled down".

Wood: As mentioned, wood quality is very important. Running a car with water in the gasoline will result in very poor performance of the car . . . or it may just not work. The same goes for a woodstove with wood that has too much water content. Buying "seasoned" wood is not a guarantee of success since there is no set standard of what constitutes "seasoned." Most folks here fall into one of two camps: Camp 1 gauges "seasoned" wood by its moisture content. Camp 2 consists of Neanderthals like Backwoods Savage and myself who figure as long as we cut, split and stack our wood and leave it for a year . . . or two . . . or three . . . or more . . . it should be well seasoned as long as it isn't stacked under a waterfall. That said, your "seasoned" wood from a wood seller could be wood that was cut down a year ago and left in tree length before being cut and split a few hours before it was delivered to you, cut, split and stacked for 6-12 months or cut and split a month prior.

Again . . . welcome to the forum.

I have a house very similar to yours, with my wood stove in the finished, but rather poorly insulated basement. I have a stove more or less the size of an Englander NC13, and it heats the downstairs well, with some excess heat that moves upstairs. It doesn't overheat the downstairs as long as I keep the door leading upstairs open. In my split entry home the stairway leading upstairs allows enough hot air to escape the basement that the basement doesn't get too hot. If your house is similar I wouldn't hesitate to install the larger NC 30. The larger stove would be nice in order to allow longer burns. I will choose my next stove based mainly on burn time, which will probably lead me to buy a large cat stove.

It is hard to rate the degree of 'involvement' required to maintain a fire. The frequency of reloading is a key part of the question and the larger the stove, the less frequently you'll have to reload. For me the routine is like this. I wake up in the morning and there are some coals in the stove. I spend ten minutes reloading a partial load of wood with lots of kindling, and perhaps mess around with the coals the get the kindling started. Once the partial load lights up I walk away. half an hour to an hour later the load has burned down so I can add a full load and I spend another 10 minutes reloading. I keep an eye on the fire for the next hour or so, reducing the air until I reach a setting I know will allow a nice hot, but not too hot, fire. Then I can leave it alone for three or four hours. Around lunch time I reload, adjust the air a few times during lunch, then the stove burns all afternoon. I probably reload at quittin' time, and maybe burn a partial load in the evening so that the stove will be nothing but coals by 9 pm or so. About 9 I pack the stove full and for the next hour or two I adjust the air to make sure this full load doesn't get too hot. By 10 or 11 I am comfortable leaving the stove overnight.

This is probably a lot more involved than other woodburners' routines, largely because I work from home and can mess with the stove whenever I want to.

begreen said:

Some medium sized stoves to consider are the Lopi Endeavor, the Drolet Escape 1800, Pacific Energy True North TN19 or Super 27, Napoleon 1450, Buck 20 and perhaps a Woodstock Fireview if you want more low fire burning control.

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The Endeavor is going to push their budget unless they buy used. Our Republic was close to what they want to spend, but even then on the high side of their budget.

As far as fire control, it really depends on the user. We got used to it fairly quick, and really didn't have much choice but to decide we were OK with leaving it since it's our sole heat source. We had one overfire which we dealt with fairly quickly (we had gone to bed, but realized it seemed fairly bright-our bedroom has an opening to the livingroom-and got it back under control). I think your best bet is to get the stove in the summer or fall, then get to know it in "shoulder season", before you really want/need to put in full loads. You can also get it installed before a vacation or weekend when you're home so you can run a full load during the day when you're there to watch it.

I have the same setup you do, but house was built in 1988. 500sqft finished downstairs. Last year was my first year burning, and I put in a Napoleon 1402 insert in the fireplace. (across the room from the stairs, and garage, which half our house sits above.) Put this in because of all of the previous statement. LOVE sitting down there watching the fire, and wood heat is the best. I did the install end of December. Granted last year was warm, I went through 100 gal of oil from sept-december. (I burn around 800-1000gal of oil a year) Turned the thermostat down got mid 50's, and just did the rest of the year with my stove. It didn't get too warm downstairs, and there was a 10 degree difference from downstairs to upstairs. Usually, it was 72-74 downstairs, and 62-64 up, perfect for us for sleeping temp. I did one day put a tarp up in the stairwell just to see how hot i could get the basement, and it was 97 in 40 minutes. So i will say there is alot of heat going up those stairs. Top of my stairs has a 14ft cathedral ceiling with a fan i have running constantly.

I will wake up at 5:30am, load the stove on some hot coals, shower and get ready. Stove is good to go around 6:30am. Come home from work around 4:30pm. Load the stove. Throw some splits in around 7:30ish to keep temp up. 10:00pm load and go to bed. On days that I have off, i'm probably reloading every 6 hrs.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/so-begins-the-insulation-pics.83224/

This is how we insulated and it is by far the best thing we have done to our home. Check out the thread it is loaded with info.

Pete

kipp438 said:

I will definitely buy a moisture meter and inspect the wood before buying now.

My windows in my house are original. They were nice Anderson windows for their time, but could definitely stand being replaced. Its just not in the budget this year, maybe next.

You have eased my worries of the involvement maintaining a fire. I have no problem putting in the effort described here. I have the "luxury" of having another heat source, so I can take my time learning the stove properly, without the pressure of having to keep the family warm if I were to fail. My thought is to use the stove when convenient this year, learn it, and as time goes on, maybe leaning toward using mostly wood heat in the future. We will see how it goes.

The reasons for leaning toward the 30, were the longer burn times. I also read on here a few places that if you're on the fence of which stove to get, go bigger. My split entry stairs are always open and come up at the center of the house. This leads my to a question I have. Can I just burn smaller fires if I want? I guess I'm not real clear on this. I know I need a hot fire to run the stove efficiently, so is it possible and acceptable to build a smaller fire to not cook us out of the room?

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Definately. And when all else fails, there's products like EcoBricks from Tractor Supply (compressed wood). Very low moisture.

Windows, surprisingly, usually aren't that much different from era to era in heat loss as long as they are maintained and in good condition. Insulation in the walls and especially the ceiling is much more important, as well as sealing leaks and drafts.

Once you get comfortable with it, it's just like any other heat source-there's a flame. Except with the stove or fireplace, you see and enjoy it, rather than it being hidden away somewhere inside a big metal box. For some reason, and I think most "new to wood burning" folks kind of feel this way, it just seems like it can "jump out" of the stove and go burn down your house or something, where as it is confined and ok in a furnace. Funny thing is though, it's more contained in a stove than in a furnace if you really think about it. We were also a little unsettled by it, even with our gas DV stoves at our Old House. Just something about SEEING it, I think.

We went bigger, kind of by a lot. But I couldn't have the shorter burn times of the 1250, and we were pretty happy with our other Lopis so we were kind of set to Lopi. Our stove is rated for like 1500-2000 sq ft I think and the cottage is 700. But it IS a former summer cottage and not built for year around occupation as far as insulation. We just build smaller fires and restoke less frequently until it gets colder out.

Reading your post I am wondering whether adding a stove should really be that high on your to-do list. If you need to buy your wood and (hopefully) seasoned in addition you will save at best a couple hundred bucks in heating cost this winter. More likely, you will save little to nothing compared with natural gas which is incredibly cheap right now. You may be better off with insulating, tightening up, replacing or refurbishing your windows (new weatherstripping and storms can be very cost-effective!) and scrounging wood over the coming months. That wood should then be properly seasoned the next winter and you can also wait for a good deal on a new stove. Home Depot often has their Englanders up for sale in the spring or you may be lucky finding a nice used one on Craigslist in the meantime.

If you want to heat your whole house with just one stove you may want to consider a wood-furnace instead of a stove. Another option would be to put a stove on the upper level and heat the basement with the gas-furnace if you can zone the heat. Or you could do an experiment by placing 2 or 3 electrical space heaters downstairs and run them full tilt for a few hours to see how much heat travels upwards. Needless to say that I am also skeptical how well a stove downstairs would be able to heat the whole house.

Good luck!

For the finished basement size you described the NC30 seems way overkill. That's a really big firebox to fill up. And I don't think stoves that size are meant to just throw a few splits at and expect any efficiency. So now your talking about filling it up and then throttling it down so you don't bake yourself out of the basement which I think you will with that large a stove.
However I do agree with the 'just go for it' approach...heck if you didn't get along with whatever stove you choose - you can always sell it and pickup another one.

eclecticcottage said:

. . .
Once you get comfortable with it, it's just like any other heat source-there's a flame. Except with the stove or fireplace, you see and enjoy it, rather than it being hidden away somewhere inside a big metal box. For some reason, and I think most "new to wood burning" folks kind of feel this way, it just seems like it can "jump out" of the stove and go burn down your house or something, where as it is confined and ok in a furnace. Funny thing is though, it's more contained in a stove than in a furnace if you really think about it. We were also a little unsettled by it, even with our gas DV stoves at our Old House. Just something about SEEING it, I think.
. .. .

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Not to get off track . . . and I agree with you on most points . . . especially the part about how it is to run a woodstove once you are comfortable with it . . . but that said there are some significant differences between a woodstove and a central heating appliance like an oil boiler, oil furnace, propane boiler, etc.

Installation: I know of very few folks who install their own oil furnace . . . instead they hire out professionals. With woodstoves, it depends a lot on the individual . . . but I would guess that in my area most folks I know have done their own installations. The problem here is if the DIYer takes the time to learn . . . and follow . . . the requirements for the hearth, clearances, etc. Failing to install the stove properly can lead to a fire.

Fuel quality: When I buy propane I can pretty much be assured that the propane I buy from any company will work in my hot water heater and gas range . . . I don't have to worry about the fuel being a poor quality or not "seasoned". This is not always the case with wood . . . I would guess there are few to no places that require wood sellers selling "seasoned" wood to meet a certain moisture content or time spent cut, split and stacked . . . and as the old saying goes . . . garbage in, garbage out. With propane, natural gas and oil you can pretty much be assured that regardless of where you purchase the fuel it will work . . . and work well with the heating system. Failing to use good fuel in a woodstove can lead to creosote which in turn can lead to a chimney fire.

Maintenance: On my oil boiler I am supposed to clean it once every year (or every other year). There really isn't much to do to it . . . and generally most folks (like myself) hire a burner tech. Woodstoves generally require a little more work when it comes to maintaining them -- whether it's inspecting and cleaning the chimney, dumping ashes, etc. Granted . . . for most of us . . . it's not much of a chore (and some of us do hire pros for the cleaning of the chimney), but it is more work than most central heating appliances. Failure to maintain the stove can lead to a fire -- whether from the improper disposal of ashes to a chimney fire.

Woodstoves are more hands-on operated: While operating a woodstove does not require a degree, it is a little more of a challenge than just reaching up and dialing the thermostat up or down. There is a learning curve to running the stove . . . and knowing when to cut back on the air or give it more air.

In summation . . . I know what you're saying about woodstoves and the perception that many folks have about their stoves being really dangerous . . . and you are correct in saying that when comfortable they can be as safe as conventional heating appliances . . . but I would argue that woodstoves do possess some attributes that would make them more of a danger vs. conventional heating appliances IF they are not installed right, run correctly or maintained. Not trying to start a debate . . . since I suspect we both feel the same way about woodstoves . . . but the reality is they are quite a bit different than conventional heating appliances.

I placed a Jotul Oslo in my 500 sq foot finished based which is fully insulated. I went with this size stove thinking I could also heat the next floor up as well. It turns out that I have a very difficult time heating my first floor. I can get the basement roasting and make the next floor up just barely comfortable. In this case the basement is unusable since it is so hot.

I've had pretty good luck with a stove in a basement in my mid-entry home. I live in a house that is 1250 up stairs and about 600 down stairs and a large stairway with open living space up stairs. I have a blower on my Lopi Endeavor and ceiling fans in all the rooms up stairs. It is often 78 degree up stairs when the temps in the 20s outside. The blower helps blow the hot air towards the stairway and my ceiling fans help draw the heat up. I don't worry to much about the basement getting to hot, because we are up stairs must of the time. I could also keep the basement a little cooler if i was down there. I think the key is having season wood and a blower on the stove.

kipp438 said:

The reasons for leaning toward the 30, were the longer burn times. I also read on here a few places that if you're on the fence of which stove to get, go bigger. My split entry stairs are always open and come up at the center of the house. This leads my to a question I have. Can I just burn smaller fires if I want? I guess I'm not real clear on this. I know I need a hot fire to run the stove efficiently, so is it possible and acceptable to build a smaller fire to not cook us out of the room?

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Long burn times with low heat (so as to not cook you out of a 500 sq.ft. room) = catalytic stove. With a non-cat, you'll always be compromising between heat output and burn time, building small fires (short burn time) to get lower heat output. In a catalytic stove, heat output can be controlled more independently of load size, and thus burn time.

The good news is that inexpensive steel catalytic stoves are plentiful. Buck. Appalacian. Kuma Sequoia. High Valley. Sierra.