Getting wood stove, have questions.

kipp438 · Sep 14, 2012

Well, things have changed a bit since my first post. I've had a couple contractors out here for bids to finish the basement. When I posted before the basement was 500sq ft, I was going by an appraisal that was done when I bought the house. I found out the actual space to be finished is more in the 350-375sq ft range. And since I was somewhat on the fence about putting the big Englander 30 down there before, I am almost certainly going to have go with something smaller now. Unless any 30 owners have had success with smaller fires in this small of a space.

I am hoping a few of you might be able to suggest a different stove. One of the reasons I first was looking at the 30 was the positive reviews and the value of it. It seemed like you got a lot for the money. So what I'm wondering is, is there a particular manufacturer or model that is highly regarded here as being a very good value for the money, that would fit the bill for a smaller stove for me. Keep in mind, for people not reading this whole thread, I have an open stairway for the split entry, its not a closed off 350sq ft. I really like the looks of Jotul and Harman, but It looks like they come at a premium price. I'm not completely against spending the extra money if there isn't a suitable cheaper option.

Thanks!

begreen · Sep 14, 2012

Kipp, go back to my original ~2 cu ft stoves suggestions. I think they still apply here. Take a look at the Woodstock stoves too. A Keystone or Palladian would work. They will give you the most control in the shoulder seasons.

Ashful · Sep 14, 2012

I'll repeat my recommendation for a catalytic stove in that small space. You can go fairly big and still throttle it down. If you go with a Blaze King, you can go HUGE, and still throttle it down. Most other cat stoves can't achieve what the Blaze Kings do, but they can still run way lower than any non-cat.

If you like the looks of a Jotul, and want to stay under $1k, I'd be looking for a clean used Jotul Series 8 catalytic stove. This model has been discontinued in the USA, but is still sold elsewhere. Most importantly, Jotul still fully supports it. A Jotul tech actually told me it was one of his favorite stoves. It is on par with the size of the current Jotul Castine, but being a catalytic, can burn lower and longer than the Castine.

If you do go that route, take a little time to educate yourself, first. There are older Jotul 8's which are pre-EPA with no catalyst, then there's an intermediate vintage with an external cat chamber, then there's the latest Series 8 which is a modern catalytic stove. You likely do not want these earlier models, but can identify the new Series 8 from the older models by the damper control located high on the left side of the front face of the stove. You can buy Series 8's used for $400, or fully restored (like new) for $800 - $1000. I saw a few Series 8's sell on ebay this summer, and many more on Craigslist.

If you want to go even smaller, there's the Jotul Series 3, and I have seen many nicely restored examples of that stove. I don't know as much about it as the Series 8, but I did see one very clean restored Series 3 cat stove on ebay for $800 recently.

kipp438 · Sep 14, 2012

Excellent suggestions. I am not really familiar with a cat stove and the pros and cons to them, other than replacing the cat every so often. Ill look into them and consider for sure.

I guess I should have re-read previous posts!

Thanks guys.

Ashful · Sep 14, 2012

Many past discussions to read on cat vs. non-cat, and they both do the same job, in basically the same way. The primary difference of the cat stove is that, with the aid of a catalyst, it can do that job (reburning the exhaust) at lower temperatures.

Advantages of non-cat stoves:
Way more options (there are more non-cat manufacturers than there are cat manufacturers)
More forgiving of doing what you shouldn't (burning painted, treated, or un-seasoned wood)
No cat to replace (every 5 - 10 years, or when you foul up burning something you shouldn't)

Advantages of cat stoves:
Wider temperature range of operation (can burn flat out wide open, or throttle way down to a smouldering fire)
Less likelihood of going too big with a stove
No reburn tubes or baffles to replace (seems I read more comments about failed non-cat reburn systems on this forum than I do about failed cats!)

I also suspect there's less chance of "going nuclear" / getting into a run-away situation with a cat stove, based on comments I've observed on this forum, but I wouldn't take my word on that. Maybe someone who has more experience with both can comment.

Despite the technology, in your price range, you would be looking at a new steel stove or a used cast iron / soapstone stove. If you go non-cat, there are near infinite choices. If you go catalytic, you're looking at a new stove from Buck, Appalacian, Kuma Sequoia, etc., or a used stove from Jotul, Woodstock, Vermont Castings, etc. Be leary of Vermont Castings, and listen to BAR's advice on them. He's our local VC expert, IMO.

BrowningBAR · Sep 14, 2012

Joful said:
I'll repeat my recommendation for a catalytic stove in that small space. You can go fairly big and still throttle it down. If you go with a Blaze King, you can go HUGE, and still throttle it down. Most other cat stoves can't achieve what the Blaze Kings do, but they can still run way lower than any non-cat.

That isn't entirely accurate. Mass plays a pretty big part in terms of heating. A Blaze King King will give off more heat at a low temp than a small stove like an Intrepid will at higher temps.

My personal experience is going from an Intrepid to an Encore. The Encore at 300 degrees heats better than the Intrepid at 650. The Defiant at 250 degrees throws off a lot more heat than an Intrepid did at much higher temps.

Yes, you can throttle down a cat stove, but a huge stove at a low temp will still produce quite a lot of heat and can still be too much heat for a small area.

begreen · Sep 14, 2012

Put a big BK stove in there and forget a view of the fire. It will be black glass from day one and all season long.

Ashful · Sep 14, 2012

Yep, I agree on both points, except BAR's surface temp / heat transfer ratio should be a function of surface area, not mass.

In any case, I was just playing devil's advocate, quoting the extremes to illustrate a point.

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kipp438 · Sep 14, 2012

That is Interesting about the bigger stoves throwing more heat due to surface area. Makes total sense but something I hadnt thought about before. Thanks for the info on the cat and non cat stoves. What cause this "going nuclear" as you say? Sounds like a situation to avoid.

sebring · Sep 14, 2012

You cant burn unseasoned wood in a 30-NC, at least not very well. Been there done that. I used a coal stove where the air comes up under the fire, and that helped me burn the wet wood good enough to get me through last winter. I now have 6 cord drying this summer for my 30. If you don't have the wood stacked and dried from this summer, your gonna be mighty cold this winter.

BrowningBAR · Sep 14, 2012

Joful said:
Yep, I agree on both points, except BAR's surface temp / heat transfer ratio should be a function of surface area, not mass.

In any case, I was just playing devil's advocate, quoting the extremes to illustrate a point.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mass. Surface area. Tomato. Potato.

BrowningBAR · Sep 14, 2012

sebring said:
You cant burn unseasoned wood in a 30-NC, at least not very well. Been there done that. I used a coal stove where the air comes up under the fire, and that helped me burn the wet wood good enough to get me through last winter. I now have 6 cord drying this summer for my 30. If you don't have the wood stacked and dried from this summer, your gonna be mighty cold this winter.

Burning unseasoned wood is an unpleasant experience in any modern stove.

kipp438 · Sep 14, 2012

I have some connections for some very nice seasoned wood. I won't burn wet wood. It's a non issue here.

Ashful · Sep 14, 2012

kipp438 said:
What cause this "going nuclear" as you say? Sounds like a situation to avoid.

Hopefully one of the non-cat guys can spell it out, since I've never burned one, and have only seen others describe it. Seems to be an issue of too big a load under the right (or wrong, as it may be) conditions, generating lots of combustable gasses in the firebox, and thus raging secondaries. By that description, it should be possible to generate the same condition in a cat stove, although I've never seen a cat stove owner describe having this problem.

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BrowningBAR · Sep 14, 2012

Joful said:
Hopefully one of the non-cat guys can spell it out, since I've never burned one, and have only seen others describe it. Seems to be an issue of too big a load under the right (or wrong, as it may be) conditions, generating lots of combustable gasses in the firebox, and thus raging secondaries. By that description, it should be possible to generate the same condition in a cat stove, although I've never seen a cat stove owner describe having this problem.

Usually the "nuclear" part is when the cat temps sky rocket. It can happen on most cat stoves, but VC cat stoves do it a little more often.

Ashful · Sep 14, 2012

Very interesting! I see the non-cat stove owners describing this "nuclear" situation as something that really frightened them, as in, once started you gotta just ride it out. Maybe they just don't know what they're doing? With a cat stove, dealing with a skyrocketing cat temp is very easy, using one of the two following options:

1. Increase air control to reduce the amount unburned gasses reaching the cat. More gasses will burn in the firebox, so the stove will not run any cooler, but it will drop cat temps.
2. Open the bypass damper (disengage the cat), and decrease the air control. The stove will burn like a classic smoke dragon. After charring the wood for 5 - 10 minutes you can re-engage the cat, and will find it running much cooler.

Shouldn't the same procedures work for a non-cat?

HatCityIAFF · Sep 15, 2012

I do like my napoleon 1402. It has a 2.23?? firebox, and i can load it up with around 6-8 good size 16-18"long splits and be good to go for the night. I think its rated for 2000sqft, but i didn't consider that when ordering it b/c the room it is in is quite small, just like you. I went with it because it is good quality, and the price. I think i paid $1700 for it shipped to my door. Not bad. I was also considering a Osburn 2000 which is a hair more expensive. If i were to do it again, i'd get the Osburn 2400 for the bigger firebox, which would of ran me around $2300, but i was on quite the budget last winter.

kipp438 · Oct 31, 2012

Hi guys, I just wanted to give a quick update as to how things are going with the new stove. Slow!

The basement is coming along, slowly but surely I guess. Along the way our budget tightened up do to some unforeseen expenses, so our wood stove budget had to stay on the lower end. I originally purchased a US Stove 2000 pedestal stove from Tractor Supply. It seemed like a lot of stove for the money and it looked like a couple members here were happy with theirs. I liked the stove well enough, but my personal tastes tend to lean away from pedestal style. While planning all things chimney and wood stove we planned out the hearth location. The plan is to put stone tile directly onto the block basement wall behind the stove 52 inches wide. Out to the sides of this, the 2x4 construction walls will start. After going over the installation instructions several times making sure all was well, I wondered about a certain measurement. The stove will be going on a flat wall, not in a corner. I had used the clearance to combustibles from the corners, as the 2x4 wall starts 13 inches behind and out from the rear corners. Manual listed this as 11 inches. I called US stove to be sure this was right. I got bad news... I was informed corner clearance applies only to corner installation, not flat wall installation. Well, clearance listed from sides is 20 inches, and that is what I was told I must go by. So even though the combustible is behind and out from the stove and nothing is to the sides, I had to use the side measurement for clearance. Live and learn! Better to know now than to learn it after the insurance company inspects it.

After much more research, I ended up bringing back the US Stove 2000 and I purchased a Drolet Escape 1800 with nickel door and legs which has much tighter clearance to combustibles and also a larger firebox. The stove is deeper, yet will require less hearth space to the front, saving me space in the room. Plus I love the look of the legs. I wasn't sure I'd like the nickel door and legs, but after getting it home, I really like it.

The drywall guy is coming this weekend and after that, things should come together quickly. I'm excited to get the stove in and fired up. (I have 3 full cords of dry firewood stacked and ready to go).

I'll be sure to update with pictures as the installation is completed. Thanks to everyone here for their help and suggestions!

begreen · Oct 31, 2012

I like the design of the Escape 1800. Sounds like you made the right move. Have to ask though, why put wood studs on a masonry wall behind the stove? Metal studs covered in cement board would have made the clearance issue moot. Not a big deal, I think you have a better stove now. I like the deeper firebox and I too am a leg man. Just curious if you considered the non-combustible wall solution?

kipp438 · Nov 1, 2012

Hi begreen, good question. Yeah, it was definitely discussed to use metal studs and cement board. At the point we were at, the 2x4 walls were already framed up. The design of the walls on all but behind the hearth is 1.5" foam board glued to the walls, with seams taped to act as insulation as well as moisture/vapor barrier. Then 2x4 walls over that with fiberglass batts. The plan on the outer walls is to cover with knotty pine, so we would have had a major style design change there. When installed, we thought we were giving ourselves plenty of cushion for clearance, turned out we were wrong!

I didn't have a very good experience with the customer service people at US Stove. Not based on their answers to my questions, but I guess it was more of a flippant attitude. I think the level of frustration I was at, and the fact that I wasn't in love with the US Stove (pedestal, made in China, etc), I felt better looking for something that would fit my plans, rather than fix what we had.

At this point, when I see the Drolet sitting in the garage waiting to be installed, I'm glad I went with it. I like the design, the clearances, the firebox, the fact it's made in Canada, etc. I hope I'm just as happy with it in a couple months when the temps are below 0!

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