Efficient Fireplace Without Blower?

Strat · Sep 16, 2012

Hello hearth.com community. My wife and I are having our first house built. We live on Long Island, and the house is going to be around 1550 square feet, all on 1 floor. We're getting a wood-burning fireplace, which was a $5,500 upgrade. I hadn't really researched it yet at the time, but now that it's time to start picking out the stone and stuff, I've been looking into it.

I think the standard fireplace it comes with is a zero clearance prefab, a 36" Majestic Royalton BR36, or something similar. I knew fireplaces weren't very efficient in general compared to wood-burning stoves, but after some research, it looks like this setup would be purely decorative, and might even suck warm air out of the house. Atmosphere and ambiance is important to us, but for $5,500 I was really hoping it would also work as a backup heat source in a power outage. Bringing our oil bill down would also be nice. Am I correct in assuming that this sort of fireplace is essentially useless for heating?

We like the look of a fireplace, and want to be able to see the flames. Having the option to sometimes have an open flame (no glass) would be nice too. We also want to put our TV above the mantle, which wouldn't really work with a conventional wood-burning stove.

I've been considering paying out of pocket for an upgrade to the basic fireplace it comes with. I have researched a few efficient EPA II certified fireplaces and have some questions. I looked at the Lennox Brentwood, Lennox Montecito, and Lennox Montecito Estate. These seem great because they are very efficient and have an ambiance very similar to that of a traditional fireplace. My only concern is that they seem to use an electric blower. In addition to probably being noisy, it also won't work in a power outage. I don't want to have to depend on a generator or battery system. If the blower is off, how is the efficiency affected? Without the blower, would these still be more efficient than the Majestic Royalton? Would they work to heat the house in a power outage?

I also looked at the Majestic Sovereign, which seems to be similar to the basic Royalton, but with a tapered firebox, which is supposed increase efficiency a bit. How would this compare to the Royalton and to the EPA certified fireplaces without the blower?

There's a company called Fuego Flame that makes a zero clearance fireplace that's supposed to be extremely efficient without using a blower. The company claims it uses "natural convection" to direct the heat away from the chimney and into the room.

http://www.fuegoflame.com/Products_zero_c.htm

That sounds perfect, but I can't find much information on the company or product, and they don't have any dealers near me. Does anyone know if these Fuego fireplaces are any good or do what they claim?

Are there any other products that I'm missing that would do what I want? My budget is also limited. I can't find prices on a lot of the items I mentioned. Does anyone know approximately how much more the builder will charge me for each of these items over the $5,500 I already paid? Thanks in advance.

RNLA · Sep 16, 2012

Welcome to the forum. The blower on most wood heating appliances is for moving the air out into the home obviously. The power outage situation is a small concern, yes the blower will not work, but how long could you be out of power? One thing is for sure you'll get one hundred opinions here, mostly great advice!

Strat · Sep 17, 2012

Thanks for the reply, RNLA. A power outage in the winter is always a possibility, and would be the only time I would actually need the fireplace for heat. I have no idea how much the builder will charge to upgrade to one of the EPA efficiency models, but if I'm going to be paying more (possibly significantly more) than I already have for this, I'd really like to be able to depend on it for that situation. It could mean the difference between being able to stay in my home or not during a winter power outage that lasts for days or weeks. There's also the issue of blower noise during regular use. If we're in the living room, it'd be nice to have the option of listening to the crackling of the fire instead of the blower noise. I think the blower in the Montecito models works on a thermostat. There's a dimmer that can control the speed of the blower, but I'm not even sure if I'd be able to turn it off completely if I wanted to eliminate the noise.

Does anyone have experience with any of the fireplace models I mentioned?

begreen · Sep 17, 2012

You will not regret investing in a good EPA fireplace. There is a big difference in heat output and reduced wood consumption when compared to a standard contractor-grade, ZC fireplace. A good unit will have a quiet blower, particularly when run on low speed. And some allow the blower to be mounted remotely in a basement for further noise isolation. Take a look at some other models before making the final decision. A BIS Tradition CE, RSF Topaz or Focus 250, Kozy Z42 or maybe an affordable Osburn Stratford?

Word is that Lennox is getting out of this business. Use that as leverage for a discount if you go for one of their models.

http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/rsf/the-topaz-fireplace
http://www.securitychimneys.com/pages/fireplace/high_BisTraditionCE.asp?
http://www.kozyheat.com/z42.html
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...Stratford-Zero-Clearance-Wood-Stove-Fireplace

PS: the best investment you can make to keep heating bills low is sealing the house envelope well and insulation. What are the specs for the house insulation?

Strat · Sep 17, 2012

The house will be Energy Star certified, so I think that means it will be sealed pretty tight. One entire side of the house is a completely open area that contains the living room (where the fireplace will be), dining room, and kitchen. That entire side is an open floor plan with cathedral ceilings. The other side of the house has the bedrooms and bathrooms.

Thanks for the model recommendations. Even if I could get it setup so the blower was fairly quiet, I'm still concerned about performance in a situation where I don't have electricity. Will these EPA fireplaces still be at least somewhat useful for heating without electricity to power the blower, or is the only option for that scenario a wood-burning stove? Is Fuego Flame basically a scam?

begreen · Sep 17, 2012

What will be the ceiling height in the fireplace area? That may be a larger determining factor. If 8-10ft, then yes, they will, though not as well as a free-standing stove. But if the house envelope is good, I still think you will be able to heat the place. If there is a cathedral ceiling, then that is a different issue. Heat is going to stratify up near the peak and a fan will be necessary to stir it up.

Is the stove location engraved in stone or is it still open? If you can you post a floor plan and we can help with placement.

Strat · Sep 17, 2012

Thank you so much for your quick and helpful responses. I PM'd you the floor plan to look at. The ceiling above the fireplace will be cathedral/vaulted. I'm not exactly sure how high it is at that specific point, but it will be on the slope up, I think. I don't think we can really move the fireplace from that spot because it's sort of integrated into the overall plan of the house and garage.

begreen · Sep 17, 2012

Yes, I can see that the location is not the issue. The high ceilings will definitely affect power outage heating. I'd invest in a generator if this is a big concern. What are your fuel options? What is the central heating system?

teutonicking · Sep 17, 2012

Strat said:
Hello hearth.com community. My wife and I are having our first house built. We live on Long Island, and the house is going to be around 1550 square feet, all on 1 floor. We're getting a wood-burning fireplace, which was a $5,500 upgrade. I hadn't really researched it yet at the time, but now that it's time to start picking out the stone and stuff, I've been looking into it.

I think the standard fireplace it comes with is a zero clearance prefab, a 36" Majestic Royalton BR36, or something similar. I knew fireplaces weren't very efficient in general compared to wood-burning stoves, but after some research, it looks like this setup would be purely decorative, and might even suck warm air out of the house. Atmosphere and ambiance is important to us, but for $5,500 I was really hoping it would also work as a backup heat source in a power outage. Bringing our oil bill down would also be nice. Am I correct in assuming that this sort of fireplace is essentially useless for heating?

We like the look of a fireplace, and want to be able to see the flames. Having the option to sometimes have an open flame (no glass) would be nice too. We also want to put our TV above the mantle, which wouldn't really work with a conventional wood-burning stove.

I've been considering paying out of pocket for an upgrade to the basic fireplace it comes with. I have researched a few efficient EPA II certified fireplaces and have some questions. I looked at the Lennox Brentwood, Lennox Mentecito, and Lennox Montecito Estate. These seem great because they are very efficient and have an ambiance very similar to that of a traditional fireplace. My only concern is that they seem to use an electric blower. In addition to probably being noisy, it also won't work in a power outage. I don't want to have to depend on a generator or battery system. If the blower is off, how is the efficiency affected? Without the blower, would these still be more efficient than the Majestic Royalton? Would they work to heat the house in a power outage?

I also looked at the Majestic Sovereign, which seems to be similar to the basic Royalton, but with a tapered firebox, which is supposed increase efficiency a bit. How would this compare to the Royalton and to the EPA certified fireplaces without the blower?

There's a company called Fuego Flame that makes a zero clearance fireplace that's supposed to be extremely efficient without using a blower. The company claims it uses "natural convection" to direct the heat away from the chimney and into the room.

http://www.fuegoflame.com/Products_zero_c.htm

That sounds perfect, but I can't find much information on the company or product, and they don't have any dealers near me. Does anyone know if these Fuego fireplaces are any good or do what they claim?

Are there any other products that I'm missing that would do what I want? My budget is also limited. I can't find prices on a lot of the items I mentioned. Does anyone know approximately how much more the builder will charge me for each of these items over the $5,500 I already paid? Thanks in advance.

Another alternative is to get a battery back up or a small quiet generator that you can use for power failures. We have frequent power failures in my area (Maryland) with our utility, Pepco. I bought a small 1600 watt Yamaha inverter generator that is extremely quiet--only about 51-61 dBA. It is also lightweight, runs for about 10 hours on one gallon of gas, and has enough power for a blower plus a few other small appliances.

http://www.yamahagenerators.com/Yamaha-Generator-EF2000iS-p/ef2000is.htm

Strat · Sep 17, 2012

We can either go with oil (which is standard) or propane for our regular heating. We'd like to upgrade to propane, so we're looking into that, but it's likely that the initial required investment will be a bit out of our budget, so we'll probably end up with oil. I'm not generally preoccupied with being prepared for major power/infrastructure outages, but I guess I always assumed having a fireplace would give me peace of mind that we'd be prepared just in case, which I'm finding out now is only partially true. I don't necessarily need the fireplace to be able to heat up the entire house to 70 degrees in February, but I'd like to at least be able to keep the living room comfortably warm in a winter blackout.

Even though we'll have cathedral ceilings in the entire half of the house that has the fireplace, a regular wood-burning stove (in the spot where our fireplace is planned to be) would still easily heat the house without a blower system, right? I like wood-burning stoves, but we like the stone/brick surrounding a fireplace, and we'd have to figure out what to do with the TV, since we planned to put it above the mantel. I would also have to see if the builder can accommodate a stove, and what it would cost. Sigh.

begreen · Sep 17, 2012

Looking at the floor plan I'd consider having a freestanding stove as an affordable alternative. I would locate it more centrally, swapping positions with the garage entry. That way you can get a good quality convective stove that looks nice and yet won't break the budget. Total installed cost should be around $4000 for a nice stove like the Enviro Boston, Jotul F55 (or the Oslo), Quadrafire Cumberland Gap or Pacific Energy T5. Definitely plan for installing a good quality, reversible ceiling fan near the peak of the cathedral ceiling.

Strat · Sep 17, 2012

The PE T5 looks nice. We would have to figure out how we'd arrange our TV and stuff, but it's an option I'm considering. We're planning on getting a ceiling fan, but what is the importance of it being reversible? Wouldn't you always want it blowing down?

What about if we got an over-sized EPA fireplace, like the BIS Tradition? I really like the look of it, and like the fact that it can be used with its glass door open to get the atmosphere of an open flame (obviously at the expense of efficiency, but nice for winter holidays nonetheless). Is that the same thing as the Lennox Montecito Estate? Did Lennox buy Security or something? Any differences between the two other than the brand? Given that it's designed for heating up to 2,500 square feet, and my house will only be around 1,550 square feet, I imagine the extra heat output would help compensate for the cathedral ceiling. I also just came across this thread:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...up-bis-tradition-when-fan-cant-come-on.33404/

Based on that last reply, it looks like the Tradition might perform adequately in the event of a power outage? I would be fine using the blower under normal circumstances, in which case that setup would heat the entire house and help me fight utility costs (right?), but it sounds like maybe even without the blower it might be good enough to keep the living room warm enough to get though a blizzard or something, which I could live with. What do you think?

zzr7ky · Sep 17, 2012

Hi - I second the suggestion to consider a free standing stove. The cost will be similar and the performance is much better.

Enjoy!
Mike

FyreBug · Sep 17, 2012

If I may add my 2 cents... Because a ZC is a fully enclosed and insulated unit the heat you will get in a power outage will strictly be radiant heat coming from the front glass. Therefore you should look at something with a large viewing area.

So am I right to conclude your #1 concern is getting heat during power outage and #2 wood burning as secondary heat any other time (or is it primary heat?)

Do you have many power outage in your area? If you have a cathedral ceiling even a wood stove would limit its effectiveness if you dont have something to power up the ceiling fans. As others mentioned, there are reasonably priced generators out there.

If you are heating with oil and considering propane why not consider a high efficiency wood burning furnace? There are ways to provide the heat throughout the house even during power shortages. We sell many wood furnaces to Amish folks and obviously they never use the blower yet find ways to get the heat around.

So based on the comments here are your options depending on your budget and other variables. You may want to list your pros & cons for each options.

1) Wood stove Aprox cost $1K - 3K + depending on model and venting
2) Upgrade to high efficiency ZC $3K - $10K depending on model and venting
3) High efficiency Wood Furnace with oil backup $3K - 6K depending on model, venting & installation
4) Combination of the above

Let us know more about your budget and what your overall goal is and we'll all try to steer you in the right direction.

FyreBug · Sep 17, 2012

Also if you are still considering a ZC can I suggest the Valcourt FP10 Lafayette? It's a 2.5 cu ft fireplace Washington State approved (below 4.5g/hr). It vents on 6" chimney. It has a large single glass.

The nice thing about this unit is you can install both a gravity kit and heat dump kit- that is you can vent heat in the same room or upstairs without a blower.

Also, You can add a 'heat dump' blower kit thermostatically controlled. This means you can heat a room up to 30 ft away - up, sideway or down. Of course this option requires power to operate. So basically you turn the unit into a small furnace and able to heat various area of your house.

Best of all it's the only High-Efficiency ZC that size that retails at about $3K.

Disclaimer: We make these.

hr).

Strat · Sep 17, 2012

Thanks, zzr7ky and FyreBug. A generator is also something I'll eventually look into (since it obviously has a lot more uses than just heating), but I guess I don't want to be completely dependent on it in an emergency. A "combination" of options would be ideal long-term. I would say we have an average number of power outages in my area, but I have the "better safe than sorry" attitude when it comes to this stuff.

My wife has her heart set on a fireplace, so I want to fully explore that to see if I can make it work first before turning to a stove. I found these other threads that also make me think that the big Tradition/Montecito EPA fireplace (or something similar) might fit my needs.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...place-extraordinaire-44-elite-question.86054/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/quadrafire-alternative-they-are-backordered-for-a-year.20417/

That FP10 Lafayette looks very similar to the Tradition/Montecito, just a bit smaller. I really like that look.

FyreBug · Sep 17, 2012

Strat said:
Thanks, zzr7ky and FyreBug.

That FP10 Lafayette looks very similar to the Tradition/Montecito, just a bit smaller. I really like that look.

The Montecito Collection is actually smaller than the Lafayette by 20%. It retails for about $3,500 and does not have the heat dump option as the Lafayette does.

The Montecito Estate is much larger however and retails for about $5,500. Vents on 7"

Someone mentioned Lennox is going out of business and that is not correct. They were bought out recently by an investment group and the Lennox name will have to change within 2 years.

BTW what is the Sq ft of you main room where the ZC goes and can you post a plan of your house?

begreen · Sep 17, 2012

I would err on the side of smaller with a tightly insulated house. The 2.5 cu ft Valcourt would be more than adequate. I don't completely agree with fyrebug in that the stove will still convect somewhat. But hot air being what it is, it will convect right up to the ceiling peak. It's not uncommon to find 110F air at the ceiling and 70F at the floor level with a cathedral ceiling. The reversible ceiling fan is to reduce drafts in the winter by not blowing down on you. It will effectively put the heat where you want it, at the outside walls for draft free warmth and greater comfort on the periphery of the living space.

Note that if you are worried about heating in a power outage, what about food storage? Do you have a well or a pumped septic? They both need power too.

begreen · Sep 17, 2012

FyreBug said:
Someone mentioned Lennox is going out of business and that is not correct. They were bought out recently by an investment group and the Lennox name will have to change within 2 years.

Correction, I said they are getting out of this business. They will still continue in their core HVAC business.

Strat · Sep 17, 2012

Thanks so much for all the advice, guys. What do you think about catalytic fireplaces like the Lennox Villa Vista (same as the BIS Panorama, I think)? How does that compare to the Valcourt FP10 Lafayette and Tradition/Montecito for my needs? What are the pros and cons for someone in my situation?

firecracker_77 · Sep 17, 2012

Get a stove or insert designed for heating. Enjoy the wood heat whenever possible. A fireplace is nice, but doesn't necessarily throw enough heat unless it's purpose built as others have listed examples of. Still a stove seems easier and cheaper.

FyreBug · Sep 17, 2012

Strat said:
Thanks so much for all the advice, guys. What do you think about catalytic fireplaces like the Lennox Villa Vista (same as the BIS Panorama, I think)? How does that compare to the Valcourt FP10 Lafayette and Tradition/Montecito for my needs? What are the pros and cons for someone in my situation?

I cant comment beyond the specs of the Villa Vista. Cost is $5,000 + and vents on 7". So if your budget allows for it, the unit and venting will be significantly higher. Also be aware all the Lennox units are approved only on their chimney so shopping for various brand of chimney is out of the question.

There are great debates here on Catalytic vs Secondary combustion. Typically a Catalytic unit provides longer burn times although I see Lennox only claim 8 hours burn time for this unit. As a rule Catalytic units are larger, vents on bigger chimney and may require the user to be somewhat more careful in its operation.

However, many people feel this is well worth the extra for the longer burn times.

FyreBug · Sep 17, 2012

begreen said:
Correction, I said they are getting out of this business. They will still continue in their core HVAC business.

Sorry... should read more carefully.

DiscoInferno · Sep 18, 2012

I've got a BIS Ultima (AKA Lennox Brentwood) that I use for primary heating in MD. As mentioned PEPCO has frequent outages, and so we've been without the use of our blower a few times. While the blower certainly maximizes the heat out of the unit, it still creates a pretty decent convection draft in the bottom louvres and out the top without the blower. Plenty of heat pours out of the unit, the main issue is (as mentioned) that it goes mostly straight up rather than out as it would with a blower.

Strat · Sep 18, 2012

DiscoInferno said:
I've got a BIS Ultima (AKA Lennox Brentwood) that I use for primary heating in MD. As mentioned PEPCO has frequent outages, and so we've been without the use of our blower a few times. While the blower certainly maximizes the heat out of the unit, it still creates a pretty decent convection draft in the bottom louvres and out the top without the blower. Plenty of heat pours out of the unit, the main issue is (as mentioned) that it goes mostly straight up rather than out as it would with a blower.

Thanks so much for that info, DiscoInferno. So are you saying that the convection draft you get without the blower from your Ultima is adequate to keep you warm if you huddle around it during a winter blackout? Just looking for a rough comparison to its normal effectiveness and also to a normal non-efficient fireplace. Without the blower, does it warm up most of the room, as compared to normally when it would warm most of your entire home?

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