Looking to Install a Wood Burning Stove Insert in old Fireplace. Need advice!

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Parkview154

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Sep 19, 2012
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First of all, I am a first-time poster, but I've been browsing the threads on hearth.com and have found a ton of useful information! Thank you!

My husband and I bought a 1948 house this June. It's a small 2br single story with a large pull down attic. The living space is 1100 sq feet appx. In the living room is an old fireplace. Some searching has led me to believe that it is called a "heatilator". It is a red brick masonry fireplace, with a steel surround and four vents on the front of the fireplace for heat exchange. It is an exterior chimney, and the flue is composed of tile.

The steel liner was completely rusted through. I mean, the top part that angles back toward the flue was literally gone. and the rest of it was it just as bad a shape. My husband and I have been talking about putting in a wood insert, but have been procrastinating due to the hefty upfront cost.

The other weekend, my husband spoke to a construction friend of his who suggested we go for it. So my husband got his sawsall and angle grinder and completely cut out the steel down to the brick. It wasn't too difficult, considering the shape it was in. Right now the fireplace consists of a brick box with four brick "channels" built into the masonry for the vents. You can look right up the the existing flue because there is no damper or smoke shelf or whatever that thing is called anymore. It was rusted and rotted out so it was removed with everything else.

So... We found an insert we like - the Montpelier by Vermont Castings. It will fit in our firebox, and we were planning on running an insulated stainless steel flue pipe all the way up the chimney, and insulating the back of the insert with ceramic insulation.

I was doing some more searching this morning before I got to work and I'm now realizing that we might NEED that steel liner and whatever else my husband ripped out in order to properly install the insert. But why? The insert is an enclosed system right? And it should be vented right up the chimney to the outside with a brand new liner. It appears to me that it should be no need for the old rusted out heatilator box. I'm very confused so please help me out.

I'm having a guy come on Friday to take a look at the fireplace. I explained the situation to him over the phone and he said that most likely it will be fine to install an insert without the old heatilator firebox. But I still have this nagging feeling of doubt and I don't want this guy to lie to us to make a sale saying everything is ok, and then not do it to code and have something horrible happen.

I should be able to post some pictures tonight of what I'm talking about. If we can install a wood burning insert, great! If not, please tell me what I need to do in order to make it so that I CAN install an insert.

Sorry for my long-winded question. Thanks in advance for all your help.
 
Hi- You might consider a free standing stove. I had a 'Heatilator' and cut the back and smoke shelf area so I could vent out the back of my stove, and then straight up the existing terra cota with an insulated rigid stainless liner. It works like a champ.

Good luck!
Mike
 
I'm not crazy about the idea of a free-standing stove. Our living room isn't very big, and I like the look of the flush mount units. It looks more like a fireplace.

I just wanted to make sure it was going to be ok and you guys have helped ease my mind. I don't know why when I was reading so many other threads that people were saying that you can't install a stove insert in a fireplace that isn't safe to light a regular wood-burning fire.

The masonry appears to be in good condition. There is a lot of excess mortar in places, but other places there appear to be gaps. It looks like that's the way it was originally built. It doesn't look like the mortar chipped and fell out. And toward the back of the box on the sides, there appear to be large whitish colored blocks - almost like cinder blocks, so the fireplace isn't made entirely of red brick, but I'm not sure why they're there. I'll have to remember to post some pictures tonight.
 
I'm wondering if you were reading posts about heatilators installed with pre-fab chimneys as well? In that case, most of the heatilator guts need to stay intact and the insert is mounted within the existing firebox.
 
Hi Mike,

I'm not sure what a pre-fab chimney is. Most of the threads I was looking at were from people with fairly old heatilators. Most of the responses said stuff like "don't modify the heatilator box to accomodate an insert". and "the only insert that's safe to use in a rusted out firebox is a ventless gas insert".

I got this from the Montpelier user manual:

"The Montpelier Medium Insert is listed for installation within a properly built masonry or heat circulating, masonry-type fireplace that is constructed in accordance with the requirements of recognized building codes. A heat-circulating masonry-type fireplace must conform to building code standards for masonry fireplaces, and must consist of a factory-built metal firebox with air circulation pathways that are surrounded by masonry materials. Air circulation pathways must not be blocked by the insert or surround panels."

It also mentions in the manual that "The chimney must be sealed off from room air, either by a plate at the damper level or by sealing the fireplace opening.". We removed the damper because it was badly damaged.

I hope you guys don't think I'm too paranoid. I just want to make sure it's safe. I really don't want to burn my house down...
 
Hay Parkview... welcome to the forums !

How about some pictures of what you have, that's help alot.

I'm assuming you started with something like this

a.jpg
 
Jeez if that doesn't look familiar! It is EXACTLY the same fireplace. I just got home and got some pictures. Lets see if I can get them posted on here...
 
1) Looking through the front of the fireplace
2) Looking up the fireplace
3) Looking up the flue (Looks like it could use a good cleaning...)
4) Right side of the fireplace interior (the "white blocks")
5) Left side of the fireplace interior showing the exposed (lower) heatilator vent.

If you need to see any other pictures let me know! I really appreciate all your help. Thanks in advance.
 

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Hey Dixie, I just realized you're in Ridge! I'm also a Long Islander. Born and raised. Live in Shirley and work at Stony Brook University. I wonder if the same person built both of these fireplaces. The resemblance is downright scary!
 
Sounds like you guys are okay. Your new stainless liner will satisfy the liner requirements. The damper plate mentioned in the installation is NOT the old damper you cut out. It seals around the new liner right about where the old damper was. You're going to LOVE having an insert. You'll forget about the cost once you see how well it heats your house!
 
Parkview154 said:
Hey Dixie, I just realized you're in Ridge! I'm also a Long Islander. Born and raised. Live in Shirley and work at Stony Brook University. I wonder if the same person built both of these fireplaces. The resemblance is downright scary!
Click to expand...

*laughing* Now I understand "Parkview" ;)

My FP is circa 1950 something, so it could very well be. There weren't many masons around here in those days ( is an old time local yokel)

I'm not a masonary expert by any means, but the 5th pic makes me uneasy. But, that could be due to taking out the metal tubing for the heatilator system.. I'm sure one of the guys will chime in here about that issue.

I CAN tell you that the heatilator system is an awesome thing to have with an insert, especially when the power goes out. Mine still works with the insert installed, and it's a HUGE help if there is no power. You won't freeze, even if your fan can't run.

I would advise on an insert with an extended front, for heat convection purposes, again if the power goes out, which can happen here in the winter. I don't think you'll regret it. You can always extend the hearth protection at the front of the FP to compensate for the difference of the extended front. Looks you'll be refinishing the front of that puppy after your install anyways :p

AND, mucho importante.... you need firewood NOW. I have access to a couple of good dudes who sell wood for a reasonable cost. PM me for info. They don't want me posting their ph #'s on the net, so I oblige.

It'll get done, hang tight, and we'll help you through it.

Always nice to see another member of "Da Sistahood" here !!!
 
Hmm, what about the 5th pic is unusual? I wonder if the design of the heatilator changed over the years because I don't remember any metal tubing in the heatilator ducts. What did they look like? Each of the four vents was mortar and brick behind the grate from the start (I know because I removed them to clean out some cobwebs when we moved in).

We were thinking about an insert with an extended front, but decided against it because our living room is fairly small, but I can see why that might come in handy. We're fairly limited with the inserts we can get. We only have 29" clearance (width) into the fireplace. And we don't have a hearth for the unit to sit on. Most of the pictures I've seen on the internet of the extended inserts have a raised hearth that the front of the unit "sits on". If we were to put in a non-flush mount insert, the box would hang above the floor and there would be a 1.5-2" gap underneath.

Any suggestions on refinishing it? I was just planning on scrubbing the heck out of it with a cleaner and stiff brush, after all the work is done, but if theres some way to make it look nicer, I'm all ears.

As far as wood goes, my husband and I were thinking about burning Envi-Bricks (at least that's what I think they're called). We don't have a large yard to stack 2-3 cords of wood for the winter, but we've got a huge attic. I think they're made out compressed sawdust - the same thing that the wood pellets are made out of. And if we store them indoors we don't run the risk of infesting our home with carpenter ants, or termites. Then again, it depends on how much cheaper wood is. I guess I better start looking into it. I've been hesitant because I wasn't sure if the insert would be safe to use in a heatilator without a firebox. Either way, it's got to be cheaper than electric heat! I'm scared to death of what my LIPA bill is going to look like come December.

Out of curiosity, when you installed your insert, did you have to remove the firebox? Or did you leave in intact? Another issue that my husband just brought up is the hole in the floor. Theres a cleanout outside which I guess was used to remove ash/debris when the unit was once used as a fireplace. It's right under the area on the first photo where the square of steel is laying on the floor. Does your heatilator have one? How did you close it up?

I can't thank everyone on this forum enough for all your help and advice!!!! I am a huge worry wart. My husband makes fun of me all the time.
 
Parkview154 said:
Hmm, what about the 5th pic is unusual? I wonder if the design of the heatilator changed over the years because I don't remember any metal tubing in the heatilator ducts. What did they look like? Each of the four vents was mortar and brick behind the grate from the start (I know because I removed them to clean out some cobwebs when we moved in). I stand corrected. I meant the metal rim that the grates screw into. On a third look, it's not crumbling, it's just rough brick.

We were thinking about an insert with an extended front, but decided against it because our living room is fairly small, but I can see why that might come in handy. We're fairly limited with the inserts we can get. We only have 29" clearance (width) into the fireplace. And we don't have a hearth for the unit to sit on. Most of the pictures I've seen on the internet of the extended inserts have a raised hearth that the front of the unit "sits on". If we were to put in a non-flush mount insert, the box would hang above the floor and there would be a 1.5-2" gap underneath.

Any suggestions on refinishing it? I was just planning on scrubbing the heck out of it with a cleaner and stiff brush, after all the work is done, but if theres some way to make it look nicer, I'm all ears. We tiled over the FP after the insert went in, I'll post a pic. Still trying to figure out how to make the grate area look nice, so for 4 years I've just had the holes exposed (word of advice.... if you have a dog that likes tennis balls, do not play near the FP, I've got a tennis ball that ended up as a "rim shot" and went into & down the left top tube..... it is NEVER coming out of there !!)

As far as wood goes, my husband and I were thinking about burning Envi-Bricks (at least that's what I think they're called). We don't have a large yard to stack 2-3 cords of wood for the winter, but we've got a huge attic. I think they're made out compressed sawdust - the same thing that the wood pellets are made out of. And if we store them indoors we don't run the risk of infesting our home with carpenter ants, or termites. Then again, it depends on how much cheaper wood is. I guess I better start looking into it. I've been hesitant because I wasn't sure if the insert would be safe to use in a heatilator without a firebox. Either way, it's got to be cheaper than electric heat! I'm scared to death of what my LIPA bill is going to look like come December. Envi bricks are fine, but again, get them NOW. The guy on Craigs List runs out quickly, although I have seen them advertised in a few of the stove shops. The one in Westhampton comes to mind. You can always get some wood, and mix them up. I've burned Envi bricks in both stoves and they were fine. Envi brick @$300 a ton, you pick up (ballpark price) firewood at tops $200 for pretty stuff, cheaper for uglies. I agree with BG, that the masonary should hold the insert fine, especially on an outside wall.

Out of curiosity, when you installed your insert, did you have to remove the firebox? Or did you leave in intact? Another issue that my husband just brought up is the hole in the floor. Theres a cleanout outside which I guess was used to remove ash/debris when the unit was once used as a fireplace. It's right under the area on the first photo where the square of steel is laying on the floor. Does your heatilator have one? How did you close it up?My firebox is behind the brick (if there is a metal one, I'm honestly not sure). The tubes are a smooth concrete, so there was nothing to remove, really. My clean out is in the same spot, but travels down to the basement (central FP, supported all the way down to the basement floor with concrete & cinder blocks). I didn't close it off, just put the insert in. I think a block off plate at the top of the firebox should eliminate your worries about the top of the firebox.

I can't thank everyone on this forum enough for all your help and advice!!!! I am a huge worry wart. My husband makes fun of me all the time.
Click to expand...

Have you looked at the Englander? I'm not sure of the fire box size on the VC.

http://www.overstockstoves.com/50tnc13i--epa-certified-noncatalytic-wood-stove--1550131500.html

It looks like the smaller fire box, which is good for 4-6 hours of burn time (someone correct me if I am wrong, please). Englander ships to the UPS dock in Bayshore, and they'll load it on the truck for you, and you take it home. we did that with the 13.
 
Refinished FP with insert, Murphy not included ;)

Newrug2.jpg
 
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