Looking for suggestions for a small fireplace replacing a prefab.

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I want to replace our prefab fireplace with a high efficiency unit. The current unit is recessed in a chimney chase with about a 15' chimney going straight up.

The opening in the stonework on the face of the fireplace is about W-36" x H-32". Behind the opening, in the chimney chase, there is probably room to go up, perhaps up to 40" or even more. As for depth, I think about D-27" would be the max backward.

If I can't get a fireplace to fit then I will probably rip out all of the old stone work and put in a wood burning stove. My first goal is low budget function over aesthetics. However, the stonework is beautiful and it would be a shame to tear it out if we can work with it.

Any suggestions? I think that the RSF Chamleon or Topaz might work judging by the specs. Any other good stoves out there, taking into consideration that I want to keep the price low?

Also, regarding removal, I think the best bet is to rip off the siding on the chimney chase and remove the old fireplace (and chimney) from the outside. Any suggestions on this strategy?

Thanks,
Tom
 
Got any pics? we like pictures here. I ripped mine out replaced it with a freestanding stove and couldn't be happier. Most of the inserts into a prefab are really small, that's assuming your prefab is approved to have an insert in it in the first place. I almost had an insert in mine but after removing it I am really happy I didn't go that route. See the link in my signature. I did a thread on my entire build.
 
Would a BIS Tradition CE fit there?
 
I dont think you'll find anything without tearing out the stone work. What size is your chimney? Most small ZC will vent on 6" so you may need to drop in a liner in your existing chimney if its oversized.

The Valcourt Saguenay is about the right size... It's EPA Washington State (4.5g/hr) 75% efficient. It retails between $3,000 to $4,500 depending on the options.
 
Thanks for the ideas folks.

FyreBug - I had an installer come by and he thought the RSF Chameleon would fit and they went so far as to give me a firm quote. I'll have a look at the Valecourt Sagenuay, thanks!

bgreen - I looked at the BIS Tradition CE and it sure looks promising. Any ideas where I can get online pricing either in Alberta or shipped to Montana for pickup?

cwill - your fireplace looks great. I'm not fully opposed to this but I want to explore the other options before resorting to this.

Here are the requested photos:

Fireplace view:

fireplace_photo.jpg



Chimney chase from outside:
Chimney_Chase.jpg
 
That is a nice looking hearth, and I agree it would be a crime to tear it out. With those updated dimensions I think you could easily fit a Lopi Freedom or other 3 cu ft firebox in there.
 
That is a nice looking hearth, and I agree it would be a crime to tear it out. With those updated dimensions I think you could easily fit a Lopi Freedom or other 3 cu ft firebox in there.

The Lopi Freedom looks great. But isn't it an insert? I don't think I can put an insert into my current prefab. I think I need to tear out what I have -- fireplace and chimney -- and replace it.

Tom
 
Yes, it is an insert, and I didn't consider the fact that you have a prefab.
 
. I think I need to tear out what I have -- fireplace and chimney -- and replace it.

What size chimney do you have? It looks in good shape and you may not need to tear it down and save yourself a couple of grand...
 
FyreBug, It looks like I've found a good deal on an RSF Chameleon display model which has a 7" flue size. The current fireplace chimney (which, in the photo above, is mostly hidden in the chimney chase -- the other chimney is for a basement wood stove) is also 7" and is probably about 30 years old although it does look in good condition all things considered. But 30 years old -- I would guess it'll have to be replaced at some point, how does one know whether it's better to replace it now (while I've got it all apart) or wait?

I only need about 15' of chimney. Is something like the Supervent sold by Home Depot going to do it for me? http://www.homedepot.ca/product/max-chimney-7-inch-x-36-inch-length/920800 -- five of these ($94 each) plus maybe a couple of 30 degree elbows, storm collar, rain cap, chimney support, spark screen (another couple hundred dollars) works out to less than $800... I hope to be able to do this job myself as I'm kind of strapped for cash right now, but I'm still at the bottom of the learning curve. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Tom
 
I would get an NFI certified sweep to inspect your chimney and let him decide if its good enough to stand.

Also be aware that RSF only certify their fireplaces with their chimney system ICC. Therefore, whatever money you are saving on a ZC will be gobbled up if you have to replace your chimney with ICC. The same goes for Lennox, they only certify on their chimney.

Do a bit more shopping and download the manuals first to see if it fits your application. Valcourt for example certify their units with all brands of chimneys.

I would stay away from some big box stores chimney. Often time they resell the lesser quality stuff whereas the 'Pro' stuff gets sold at better stores. You can shop chimney at Woodland Direct. com and Dynamite Buys. They have the good stuff and are competitive. If you call them they are pros and give free advice.

Best bet? Keep your chimney if you can and mate it to a good high-efficiency ZC.
 
Buck stoves makes several models of stoves that can be used in prefab fireplaces.I put a model 18 buck in a prefab
fireplace in a single wide trailer.I installed a single wall 6"stainless steel liner down the 8" chimney, directly into the stove and ran out the top.It worked really well,draft good.That model of stove came with a blower already installed.
Check em out.Good stoves.I burnt it this way 5 or 6 years.
 
I have a freestanding Lopi Answer in a fireplace opening 33"W x 31" high. It looks great nestled in there flush with the front of the firebox. It has a blower on it, and the firebox has a jacketed construction for the air to pass through so I don't lose a lot of heat to the sides.

It would be a shame to lose such a nice looking hearth. I would encourage you to just put a freestanding firebox in there.
 
Love that mantle! You will most certainly have to do some stone removal (around the existing fireplace, at bare minimum) to do this removal/install. but, if you take your time, you can do it without disturbing the other stones. How involved will it get? Depends on how easily you can get to your existing chimney. I'm betting you will have to upgrade your flue pipe to a Class A (your existing pipe is almost guaranteed to be triple wall, not nearly as safe and efficient as class A). I'm installing the Napoleon NZ3000, it looks old skool and we already love the thing, even though we have yet to fire it up! Keep us posted on what you do, and keep the pics coming. Lots of guys on here that are highly experienced and more than happy to help out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sawback
Thanks for all the replies and encouragement. I guess I have a couple of questions now:

1) This question appears a few times in these forums without a straight answer. Can (should?) I put an insert into my prefab fireplace or not? The fireplace vendors for the most part say no. It looks like plenty of people go ahead and do it though.

2) If I do go with an insert, will I be redoing things (i.e. replacing the chimney) 10 or 20 years from now where I wouldn't need to if I ripped everything out and put in a new fireplace & chimney?

3) Scotty Overkill -- I guess I won't know until I start pulling it apart, but if I remove it from behind (opening up the chimney chase) I'm hoping I can get away without damaging the stonework. Or is this wishful thinking?

4) Assuming I'm looking for a deal on a basic but reliable, quality, efficient unit what should I be budgeting for (a) a complete remove and install with new fireplace and chimney, and (b) an insert into my current prefab?

We've already got close to two cords of (mainly poplar) firewood waiting, and the thermometer has already been dipping occasionally below zero (Celsius that is...). We're going to want some fire soon.

Thanks again,
Tom
 
You CANNOT put an insert in that chase......inserts are for masonry fireplaces, that is a wood chase. You will burn your house down if you attempt it. There's been a post or two in this forum where people have tried, and the results were catastrophic. As for removing the existing fireplace from the back, you will definitely have to open the back of that chase to get the old pipe disconnected, but that prefab fits in from the front (there will be a lip around the face of that fireplace where it is fastened into the chase), you're going to have to do some stone removal to get that thing out. I would definitely consider getting a good, modern ZC fireplace from a name brand manufacturer (lots of good, modern ones that are very efficient, but also expensive), as well as modern, class A flue pipe.
 
Here is the answer to your first question


It is possible to install a wood insert into an existing factory-built zero-clearance fireplace. However, there currently exists no UL or ULC standard specific to that type of conversion. The first thing that must be verified is that the factory-built zero clearance fireplace is listed (it must be certified by a competent certification body such as Omni or Warnock Hersey). It must be suitable for use with solid fuel and nothing in the owner’s manual must specifically prohibit the installation of a fireplace insert. When in doubt, check with the fireplace manufacturer. The installation of the zero-clearance fireplace MUST be thoroughly inspected by a professional in order to ensure that it still meets the manufacturer’s specs and code conformity. The chimney must be of at least 1" (25 mm) larger in diameter to accommodate a required continuous stainless steel liner running from the flue collar to the top of the chimney termination.

Never remove parts that serve to insulate the zero-clearance fireplace from combustible material. Only readily detachable parts that are easily replaced, such as damper parts, screens, and doors, are to be removed from the fireplace. These parts must be stored nearby and available for retrofit if the insert is ever removed. Removal of any parts which render the fireplace unfit for use with solid fuel requires the fireplace to be permanently labelled by the installer as being no longer suitable for solid fuel until the removed parts are replaced and the fireplace is restored to its original certified condition. Furthermore, any air vents, grilles, or louvers that serve to create an air circulation pattern around and outside the zero-clearance fireplace shall never be removed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sawback
You CANNOT put an insert in that chase ... You will burn your house down if you attempt it.

It is possible to install a wood insert

Thanks Scotty Overkill and FyreBug, I have read the passage you've quoted FyreBug in another thread, and I have to say it amuses me a bit to see such radically different viewpoints side by side. Could either of you point me to some kind of official documentation supporting these views?

I see the logic in FyreBug's reply. If a prefab fireplace can handle the heat of a fire it should be able to handle the heat of an insert within it. At the same time I can see potential problems if it's done incorrectly and in any case it seems that for the added cost a complete remove and reinstall might be worth the effort.
 
This could just be a matter of terminology. You can't pull the existing fireplace and then put a wood burning insert into the chase. That would be hazardous. The insert must go into a tested and approved ZC or masonry fireplace. You can put another wood burning ZC fireplace in the chase to replace the existing one, paying close attention to the new fireplace's installation requirements which can be different, especially for the flue and clearances.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sawback and ScotO
If a prefab fireplace can handle the heat of a fire it should be able to handle the heat of an insert within it. At the same time I can see potential problems if it's done incorrectly and in any case it seems that for the added cost a complete remove and reinstall might be worth the effort.
OK, I looked at your initial inquiry a little differently than you are meaning to interpret . I was looking at the question as if you planned on putting the insert DIRECTLY into the chase, when what you were actually asking is if you can put the insert into the existing ZC unit. So, I will re-answer and say I agree with Fyrebug. I believe that CAN be done, but as fyrebug said there are no written guidelines on the subject, so insurance may be a HUGE issue if you go this route. Also, finding a unit that properly fits inside your existing ZC unit may be an interesting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sawback
Thank you begreen, that could well be the explanation. Which leaves me to decide which makes more sense long-term, installing an insert into my prefab or a complete remove and reinstall?

From my limited understanding this is what I'm seeing:

1) Insert: it's possible to put an insert into my existing UL certified prefab, which along with the chimney is about 32 years old. Advantages: cheaper ($1000 for an insert, $500 for the chimney liner), easier (no removal of the old fireplace necessary). Disadvantages: there seems to be some debate about how reliable this approach is, ranging from "you'll burn your house down" to, "be careful and it will work."; longevity - it seems that this approach will have a shorter useful life than a R&R; efficiency -- it looks like there's about a 10% hit in terms of efficiency with inserts; selection: looks like in general for the space the fireboxes are a bit smaller and designs especially in terms of appearance are more limited.

2) Remove and reinstall a new ZC fireplace: pull off the chimney chase, cut out the old one from behind, replace the sheeting with some kind of rock sheet/backerboard securing it to the stonework, remove the old chimney, install the new ZC fireplace along with a new Class A chimney. Advantages: using all new materials wil give the longest lasting and most predictable results with the most options. Disadvantages: could be a lot of work, especially if the stonework needs to be messed with (it's drypack Rundle Rock which according to my stone mason buddy could be a real pain to work with), Cost (I have a quote for a demo model RSF Chameleon at $1800 plus the chimney & bits and pices for just over $1000, plus misc materials for the retrofit, e.g. rock sheet, mortar, etc. Best combo of product and price I've found so far.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.