System design anyone ?

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Fi-Q

Feeling the Heat
Mar 5, 2009
276
Bonaventure, Quebec
Hi all,
Been building a house for 3 year now…… still living in the basement…. Eventuallt, when everything is all said and done, I will have radiant on every floor and most likely a gasifier wood boiler.
As of right now, I only have the piping in the basement slab with the manifold for the 5 loop of ½ pex for 1000 sqft of basement slab.
As of right now, I am heating the basement at 70 with electric baseboard and a wood stove. The first and second floor never gor under 50 with the basement beign heated. (Still have a lot of work to do inside the house).
I bought the radiant heat design book for 200$ 3 years ago, and read approx. 50 page of it….. been reading here a lot…. But I’ve been working on the road, away from home crazy hours since 7 years and the few weeks off I’ve got home got so busy making the house protected from the element that the design of the radiant floor never came close to the top of the priority list.
But with a 3rd kid on the way and the possibility of me beign away from home this winter, the wife really wants the basement slab heated before I go, remember the old saying: A haapy wife is a happy life.
So my plan always been to have an electric boiler to start anyway. So i want to start with it.
Radiant is kind of not common here, and with the very few contractor I’ve talked too, they don’t seem to know much, so I wold like to have my system design by someone who knows the stuff and then I could compare with local quote. Or maybe kick my butt and do the install myself during parental leave in November (Baby is due first week).
Anybody have recomandation ? What should I pay for a basic system design ? Only 1 electric boiler with 5 zone for 3000 sqft?
As of right now, I usually burn approx. 8 face cord of maple or 13 face cord of larch per full heating season. And my total electrical bill from beginning october to end of april have average have been:
For 2009-2010 season, nobody was home from mid-January till the end of the season, so heating only with electric heat and burnt approx. 3-4 face cord of larch for nov-dec-jan :
2009-09-24 to 2009-11-20 - 58 days : 2 630 kwh for 208,58 $ Avergae of 45 kwh / day
2009-11-21 to 2010-01-21 - 62 days : 2 610 kwh for 206,02 $ Avergae of 42 kwh / day
2010-01-22 to 2010-03-25 - 63 days : 3 790 kwh for 305,16 $ Avergae of 60 kwh / day
For 2010-2011 season, we were not home from January till the end of the season, but the sister in law stayed home until end of march while we were gone, so on top of the elctrci bill, we burnt a total of approx. 5-6 face cord of larch (But the SIL burnt approx. 2 cord for the whole jan-feb-march):
2010-09-23 to 2010-11-17 56 days: 2 070 kwh for 162,10 $ Avergae of 37 kwh / day
2010-11-18 to 2011-01-24 68 days: 3 530 kwh for 283,91 $ Avergae of 52 kwh / day
2011-01-25 to 2011-03-23 58 days: 4 470 kwh for 368,46 $ Avergae of 77 kwh / day

For 2011-2012 season, the wife been home full time, and As I didn’t have any larch left, I bought some dry maple, and we burned approx. 7 face cord from September to april (Note that the bill from November from jan was estimated, wich mean the utility company couldn’t access my meter due to snow, so the estimated the consumption and then got a real reading end of march, so those 2 bills might not reflect the reality, I probably use more kwh in nov-dec wich in fact boost my jan-feb march bill when they got a real reading, I think an average of 68 kwh day is a little high when we figure the stove is usually burning 16 hours a day minimum:
2011-09-14 2011-11-09 57 days: 1 610 for 125,25 $ Avergae of 28 kwh / day
2011-11-10 2012-01-11 63 days: 3 360 for 271,44 $ Avergae of 53 kwh / day
2012-01-12 2012-03-20 69 days: 4 710 for 388,46 $ Avergae of 68 kwh / day
So that’s what it is, note that the electric bill include everything plus heating (DHW, dryer,s tove, lights, tv, ect….)
When ever I’ll be ready for the wood boiler, I will do the whole thing myself, but as of right now, I can’t justify a IWB, but I am planning / hoping to change job within 3-5 years, my oldest daughter will start school in 2 years from now and they won’t follow me on the road after that…..
The house is very well insulated, 2 story plus a full basement, the system will be a 5 zone system, and probably should plan a 6 zone for DHW when the WB will be online:
1 – the basement
2- The walk-in – lobby – mud room on the first floor
3 1st floor: Kitchen / Dinning / Living all open floor plan
4 2nd floor family bathroom
5 – 2nd floor , a total of 4 bedrooms
Haven’t had the time for a heat load calculation yet.
So, what you guys think, any idea, inputs, or suggestion, I am open to every opinions, options and possibilities.

Thanks
 
A few ideas. Do the heatload calc either by yourself with one of the online calculators or have it done by a pro. This will form the basis of all your system design, as an example what size of electric boiler you need for design temp operation (design temp is your coldest days) so let's say of the top of my head -30::C maybe colder. This is something you should not guess on but rather know. Heatload that is. Once you have an accurate heatload calc you will know what size electric boiler you need & that will also tell you if you need to upgrade your electric service. More amps. One question why not have all the bedrooms as their own zone? If someone wants a meatlocker room temp let em, if someone wants a furnace room temp let em esp after you have the wood boiler hooked up. Same goes for all bathrooms. DHW as it's own zone for sure. What type of emitters did you plan on using?, cast iron rads, radiant panels, tubing under floor, tubing in floor, with or without aluminum diffusors. All of this & much more will affect how your system is designed as many of these require different temp supply & flow rate. One suggestion finish reading the book. Is it Sig's book or another author. Either way plenty of knowledge in there for sure. Just a thought with starting a young family & you on the road you may want to consider a well designed system based on an electric boiler & leave the wood for later or maybe never. No point coming home to cut split & stack wood & miss out on time with the family. Just my 2 cents. Keep asking questions. Plenty of good been there done that folks here.
 
I have 200 amp electrical panel at home. And I cain't upgrade it. It is 525 feet underground and cost me a fortune back then. But I am pretty sure it should be enough.

As far as method. The basement is poored in slab pex. I Will have a suspended slab for main floor with 1/2 pex ( not decides yet if I am gonna go with 2x2 sleeper or full slab). And for 2nd floor I am planning on going with 1/2 pex stapple under with aluminium plate.

I was thinking that 5 zone is already a big system. Of course I would want each bedroom on there own thermostat, but i am then goong with a 8 zone system. I have no clue whats the cost diffrence, but I was thinking that more zone equals more pump and lot more money.

I will try to find the tome for heatload calculations.
 
My book is the John Sig's 2nd edition, and i guess there is a 3rd edition from 2011 available. I need to read this....
 
How is the cost of electricity compared to propane or oil up your way ? How about an on demand boiler for your hot water needs. You can do a side wall vent and not use up a chimney flue. This will keep some load off your electric panel too.
 
Here the cheapest option after wood is electric at approx 6cent per kwh. Oil and propane are really expensive and no NG within 500 miles
 
With the variable speed pumps that are available today you should not need a pump for each zone unless you want redudancy built into your pumping scheme. You would still need a method of flow control for each zone, TRV or zone valve etc. Wilos eco pumps come to mind as they can vary their speed as can others, newer generation pumps are real energy sippers compared to the old generation pumps. Something to think about.
 
I will get some quote locally and take time to evaluate them and continue my education. True that ocer all energy consumption of the system other than heating need to be as low as possible as well..... If ever I want to have either a ups back up system or be off grid.... But thats another story.

I fou d some place in the probince that are building / sending DYI kits, I will look for those as well
 
That's cheap electric rates - but do you have off-peak electric rates too?

If so I would look into an ETS system - heats up storage at night when rates are lower. Some quick info:

http://www.steffes.com/off-peak-heating/hydronic-furnace.html

No idea on cost, maybe too much. Likely the quickest & easiest to do if you're in a pinch though would be a simple electric boiler as you're thinking once you determine the right size - also the simplest to adapt a wood boiler to later. With a 200 amp entrance you should be good there.
 
No off peak rate here yet. But hudro quebec are starting to install 'smart meter' so I think that eventually price will be modulate with diffeent rate per day period.

I am thiking to get a wood boiler with storage anyway, so top of my mind. If ever i get the wood qith storage and for X reason I cant heat with qood, and we are then with a peak ower rate.... I would just have the electric boiler to charge the tanks durin low price hour ( Most likely during the night) . I think i ve read here sonewhere that some peiple have Garn with the electric opions that never hace fired them. Just use it as a heat load that et recharge durin low peak hours
 
I have heard that Garn is working on an all electric storage system which seems to me to be tailor made for your situation. I think Chris Holley is the rep for your region and would be an excellent resource for design of your entire heating system also. [email protected] is his e-mail address if you want to get in touch with him.
 
Fi-Q, I can see that you are the "bricoleur" type of person, so if you have time to read a good manual and know plumbing and electric basics, I would recommend Caleffi for their design ideas. (thanks to Steam Man for the plug on this manual !)
idronics™
Hydronics for Wood-Fired Heat Sources
http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/pdf/idronics_10_us.pdf

For getting your hands on plumbing supplies, I don't know if Boone-Desrosiers have distributors in your area, but they may be able to help you find another distributor.
Besides Garn, there is Pro-Fab that makes an electric backup on some of their gasification boilers. But you can also buy a normal electric hot water tank to charge the storage tanks too with a little bit of tinkering. Maybe another circulation pump, aquastat, check valves and timer of some kind.

If you would be in Montreal\Ottawa area, I would tell you to come over...

Bonne chance,
Trex83
 
Some Varmebaronen boilers also have the option of having electric elements installed directly in them (or their storage tanks) for electric backup. I considered that here but I like modularity - so went with a separate electric boiler.
 
As of right now, i do not need storage. Don't get me wrong, i would also love to gave a Garn, but it is way off budget for now.

I think I can do a lot of things with my hands, but time is killing me..... I have book as well, but i am working like a dog right now......

If i found time, I have some calls / email on the list for tomorrow / this week-end.

I ll get the basic and eventually, berore goong to wood & storage I will educate myself a lot more.

I am usually travelling a lot. Next year when I ll be off thw gaspe coast area, i will look for some boiler room friends and maube have a chance to put my eyes on a installed wood boiler.

Any one have a numbera to throw on what a basic system should cost ? 40 kw electric boiler, 1 pump, 1 thermostat, 1 tank ? I've seen sone internet compny stating : starter lot for 2500$, wich Seems like a lot to me fr material only.
 
I know it's a typo, but :

I think I can do a lot of thong with my hands

had me falling off my seat here. Sorry, he he.

Here's a 40kw boiler:

http://www.pexsupply.com/Slant-Fin-...hase-Eight-Element-Electric-Boiler-137000-BTU

They don't ship up here according to their website, but it's a great resource for shopping supplies. Looks like 2500 for the package you mention isn't too awful far out of line.

EDIT: I should add that Varm boilers are intended to work with storage, but most other gassifiers can do OK without.
 
Thanks for the link Maple1. And I edited my last post. That Iphone keyboard is killing me.
 
As of right now, i do not need storage. Don't get me wrong, i would also love to gave a Garn, but it is way off budget for now.

I think I can do a lot of things with my hands, but time is killing me..... I have book as well, but i am working like a dog right now......

If i found time, I have some calls / email on the list for tomorrow / this week-end.

I ll get the basic and eventually, berore goong to wood & storage I will educate myself a lot more.

I am usually travelling a lot. Next year when I ll be off thw gaspe coast area, i will look for some boiler room friends and maube have a chance to put my eyes on a installed wood boiler.

Any one have a numbera to throw on what a basic system should cost ? 40 kw electric boiler, 1 pump, 1 thermostat, 1 tank ? I've seen sone internet compny stating : starter lot for 2500$, wich Seems like a lot to me fr material only.

It's not a Garn in the wood burning sense. It's an electrically powered storage tank that allows one to "harvest" btu's at lower off peak rates (where available) and store them for use throughout the day. I do not know if it's on the market yet but know it has been prototyped. Not a wood burning unit in any way.
 
More of a huge tank electric water heater with a timer, from what I understand of them. At 6cents a Kwh (cheap hydro in Qurbec) I'd expect wood to be more $$$$ than the electric, but I have not crunched the numbers. A heat pump with resistance backup/supplement would be the cheapest thing to run IMHO.

TS
 
Yeah, power is pretty cheap out here. But I have a feeling that its just be goin higher and higher as time goes.

And except time, all my wood free. And I really enjoy, so far, working on my land to harvest my own wood. It is a good work out and a mental releif.

And I like the idea of beign more independant. And I hope to put the wood boiler in while i have a good paying job, so eventually if I have less money, it will be easier if the boiler is installed and paid. You know, not just a question of right now payback, but a long term perspective and way of living, thinking......

But, for now its gonna be the electric one to start, and seeing the wood boiler more on a 5 year plan. I do have a wood stove to suplement the electric boiler in the meanwhile
 
Here the cheapest option after wood is electric at approx 6cent per kwh. Oil and propane are really expensive and no NG within 500 miles
Wow, where do you live? Here in maine it .14 cents kilw. 2nd cheap here is smaller house,lol,
 
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