Didn't we have this post last week? Lot of foolish people cutting holes in the floors?

Cutting holes in floors and ceilings is a reduction of safety. today all rough frame inspections include inspecting draft and fire stopping. Just as important to your personal safety, as the structual aspects of homes. Every wire, pipe, or duct penatration is draft stopped. Fire blocking is also used to protect the integrity of structual members, like your load bearing walls and beams.
It has been proven that, containment saves ctitical seconds/ minutes to safely exit a fire situation. Floors and ceilings are considered natural containment barriers. One would never cut a hole in the floor if they watched the films I have seen, how a fire spreads and the time it can get to critical stages. Ones fire starts the rising hot air finds there holes ( penatrations) as it risses threw that hole due to pressurization differencials it accelerates. the more intense it gets the faster the acceleration cycle. Some holes offer the oxegen source to accelerate the fire while others offer a path for rapid expansion. Its not just the fire, but the huge vollumes of hot potentially deadly gasses and smoke. The holes allow for express pasage into the next floor living space. Speaking of deadly gases the same holes can be an expressway for carbon monoxide, just as deadly.
The question on should ask is getting a little residual heat to the next floor worth the risk? If you came into my office and applied for a permit to cut holes in the floor. I would deny issuing it
These holes are being cut to allow heat to rise into the next floor.

Lets examine the situation: If you want heat from your auxillary heat source then place it within the living space. Basement locations are woefully bad concerning drafts in a negaitive
pressure location. Usually stoves in basements compete for adequate combustion air need by your furnace / boiler. fuel fired hot warter heater and many times a clothes dryer.
All this competition leads to, incomplete combustion and reduced effeciencies of all appliances, plus increasing negative presurization. With increased negative pressurization and incomplete combustion is the fromular for increased carbon monoxide risk. Makeup combustion air has to come from somewhere. The negative pressure gradient is there, it is very easy for one appliance demand to suck the exhaust back into that basement. Could it be the reason no heat is moving into the living space, because combustion air demand is sucking that air from the holes cut in the floor, into the basement? That explains one phenomem, Another thing is happening the pressure in the Basement is negative or lower. Those same holes act to allow the higher pressure to to make up the negavive pressure gradient in the basement. This is a chimney effect in reverse. Added to the reversechimney effect, colder heavier air at the floor level also wants to decend. The winner will always be the heavier air. The final piece of the puzzel is supply = returns. Cutting hole in the floor without a well thought engineered location of the return route, is useless.

The basement its self unless you have well insulated walls, That cold concrete foundation walls suck most of that heat out. the sill contact plate is probably leaking like a sieve. Your rim joist is probably not insulated This stove location was doomed to start. Everything I have said is backed up by studies. There is nothing new I came up with.

Very few studies favor basement locations as a solution to heat an entire house. Wood/pellet stoves are zone heaters that should be located within the space they should heat
they were never whole house heaters. Cutting holes in the floors is not improving a bad location. only compromising you and your familly safety.

The question you have to come to grips with is heat vs safety. Im the forum's worst typer. It is not easy or as fluid a task. as it is for many here.

I did not take this time to type up this post, if I was not concerned about you and your familly's safety. My home there are no holes. I know the risk, I would never compromise
my familly safety.

Note I did not refference any code here, Code at times is to protect the innocent and at times to protect fools from themselves. I'm not ducking of cover here worring about other oppinions.

Worse would be ones that advocate the increased safety risk. Ones that will tell you to use blowers further removing combustion air, accelerating situations, that have gone bad. Blower that further add to negative pressurization. Very few are qualify as Mechanical engineers, with the knowledge of you home's layout and air flows, to locate the required holes and fan vollumes required to even achieve a positive heat gain. No Mechanical engineer should advocate purging natural containment floors and ceiling without detailing adequate protection.
There such a safety concern ,for those that advocate some sucess that's ok. You acepted your own personal risk, but it is not wise to endorse others, to compromise theirs.

The post did not single out any indididuals. The purpose is to educate those that have cut holes and warn ones that are comtemplating cutting them. If any thing, there is a margin
fo safety that can be employed. There are damper grills, that are spring loaded by a temperature sensitive fuseable link. If a fire condition presents its self, the 140 degree fusiable link melts and the spring load closes the grate. Containment is restored.
I comemd you for the smoke and carbon monoxide warning system. Possibly with their adequate coverage and fusiable link grates , you have reached a much better safe escape warning system and have restored critical exit time before it is too late.

In the past poster supplied links as to where fusiable link grates can be purchased. No they are not the $8 home depot types

I hope To wiki this post and the responders. I re-read my own original post and my typing needs improvement. I'm going to blame it being late and being tired helping
another member safely install his insert yesterday. I will go back and spell check it as well.

I did not single out you, nor did I intend to. If a fuel burning appliance inadequately burns its fuel and does not adequately draft its exhaust . and backs drafts.
Carbon monoxide will follow the heated exhaust and natural air currents within that home. Including finding passage threw holes cut in floors. It will not be contained within the basement,
as the natural contaiment floors has been compromised. Naturally if the fuel burning appliances and exhaust paths and working correctly there is no problem for concern.
And I too agree adding wood stoves adds to one's risk. However with proper opperations , proper dectection coverage, proper maintance of the appliances and their exhaust routes
,, the risk can be advoided.
This forum is the best place on the internet to learn about stove opperations and safety of their opperations

Todd have you read the code conerning draft and fire blocking? Have you read NFPA 82 concerning containment? Because have not read the code, is not enought reason to advocate your solution is correct or imply to other it is ok. Ingorance is not acceptance to doing as you please and ignorance does not make it any safer or code compliant. Today's code requires a cellar door and if that space is unconditioned it must be draft stopped weather stripped. As for doors closed , yes they enhance containment. It is well documented ,,one is safer with a bedroom door closed than open. To encourage the door to be closed, modern codes require smoke detectors in every bedroom. Studies have proven the door closed issue. Not all areas can be protected and doors are not closed all the time. Stair ways are natural convection passages,that is why smoke detector coverage is manditory within the imediate area.
Bike medic is a fireman ,he has seen and wittnessed fires , believe me you do not have the time you think, till fire and smoke engulf the home. There are a lot of dead herro the went back in and never made it back out.

Todd I'm sorry I gave you the the wrong code sections part of it is Im still remembering the chapter line up year 2000 and the new alignment 2003.

Let me say, I have not found it yet in the International codes which is the governing code NFPA is not the governing code but up to 2006 it was not reconised by the BOCA/ International codes

I do not know if NFPA is enforceable it is with wood stoves because their listing list being compliant or tested To NFPA 211. IT's the manufactures that call in the aplication to NFPA.
Honestly other than NFPA 211 I'm not all that familliar with their NFPA codes. We do not inspect them the fire depts take care of them the fire dept inspects every home for smoke and monixide coverage burner inspections and fuel storage. We do the fire blocking structual and what is required for occupancy. In all the years of inspecting, I have never come acccrost a hole in the
floor . Holes are not cut in many new homes. Most are cut in by homeowners without a whole lot of thought about the safety ramifications. Nobody applies for a permit to do them
so far it has not been a big enough issue to require new code language. partly ,because it is done without code official knowledge.
Common sense also has to enter into doing things not everything can be written as code

In Turner's case, I have never seen a chimney without a crown cap. Never felt I had to inspect for one. It was common sense that all chimneys were built with caps.
Unfortunately for Turner this oversite will cost. the top 8' may have to be removed and rebuilt, because the weathering caused due to the lack of the crown being in pla

I don't want to get into an epic debate here, the original post was to point out increased risk and make others aware of potential dangers

gva video clip says it all

I agree with what you are saying. However please explain to me how ceiling location returns, are an energy effecient application in the heating cycle . Are they not returning already heated air? Returns are suposed to remove cool air? Say a common 8 room colonial home that has an HVAC system. supply = returns there should be probably 12 return duct openings even if one draws in warm heated air 11 others should be removing much cooler air how it that going to supply heat in the furthest remote location? If one draws from the air above the stove code says no return air duct should be within 10' of the stove. and 11 others delute that drawn in air will substantially cooler air what is accomplished Not heat only wasted electricity
then there is 35% loss during transission . I plain is doomed not to work.
I have mentioned this many times modern HVAC systems are pooly designed and installed. Think about the use of joist bays for return routes only allowed in residential codes not permitted in comercial codes due to fire safety considerations You have a return route that leaks and is constructed using combustiable materials. Flex ducts the most abused application, that should not be permitted. One can not begin to compare the friction resistance they present, when compared to smooth surfaced metal ducting Every home I built has damper controlled high low return grills in every upstairs bed rooms. I instruct each new owner, to close the upper vent during heating season and to open them during AC and close the lower return. Every take off the has an inline damper used to balance the entire system. All flow rates are recorded and balanced. If a room requires 250 cfm then it should recieve it. Part of the balance, is proper returns in vollume and locations. Adding or cutting extra supplies or returns unbalances the system. It might still work but the entire system would have to re-balanced. The same company I hire for balancing also leak test the system. a good system leaks less that 6 cfm per 100 cu ft vollume. All ducts joints a were seamed with mastic. I only did a few homes this way. Most homes I built using FHW baseboard heating. I live in New England. AC is not that big of an issue but for a hand full of days. FHW is a cleaner heat. I love the arguement. I have a 95% effecient gas furnace but loose 35% of that effeciency in transmission