Anyone Hot Reloading Cat Stove

Cross Cut Saw · Jan 21, 2013

My Progress Hybrid will be struggling to keep up with the upcoming cold snap.

The stove does amazing above 35 degrees, really well above 25 degrees, struggles in the teens, and anything lower than that, or sustained bitter cold, she needs to be kept above or close to 500 degrees (I know, wow, your house would be 100 degrees, I'm amazed

) stove top temperature as read on the cast iron next to the flue to keep the house in the 60's.

I've said it a lot in the past but my house is 150 years old, 1800 sf, with 9 1/2' ceilings downstairs, and poorly insulated.

I'm sure the coal bed will get ridiculous, but anyone else loading very hot like that?

I found this 2 year old thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/hot-reload-w-cat.58213/ but there wasn't a lot of discussion...

leeave96 said:
Any of you cat stove owners reloading a hot stove - 400 to 500 stove top temp or higher?

Sometimes, I've got a hot stove top, but I'm down to hot coals - yet the stove is still showing 400 to 500ish stove top temperatures. I know the temps are going to fall, but to keep momentum, I'm thinking - now is the time to reload. This is for daytime burns, not overhight ones and the goal is to keep pumping heat out of the stove and keep those 500 degrees stove top temps going. Note that in my case, the continued high stove top temps are in part driven not by sustained heat in the firebox, but by heat stored in my soapstones so on other non-soapstone stoves, where I am seeing hot coals, they may be also seeing lower stove top temps. I'd be courious as to what cast iron and steel stove top temps are with respect to the above.

Also, when you load hot and your wood IS dry and the stove top temp is 400ish to 500 degrees, any reason not to go ahead and engage the cat vs waiting 15 or so minutes? It would seem to me that if your wood is dry, why not go ahead and engage the cat and recover some of the smoke heat and further help keep the chimney clean. I don't know that I would engage right away, but perhaps after a few minutes that would allow the surfaces of the wood to become at least charred.

Lastly, I have read that some of the non cat stoves with secondary tubes can have their stove tops run super hot - in an out of control way with a hot reload. I have reloaded my Keystone cat stove at 300 degrees, but found it very easy to control the fire and haven't found myself anywhere close to a that uncontrolled situation. Anyone had their cat stove go out of control after a hot reload?

Thanks!
Bill

What were your results Leeave96?

mfglickman · Jan 21, 2013

I sometimes reload the FV around 400. If I do it any higher I feel like I'm wasting wood. Honestly 400 feels like a bit of a waste but sometimes I need to due to schedule etc.

Thanks for your post, btw. I'd be ticked if I spent $3K on a PH and it didn't heat my house...everyone here talks about how it's such a powerful heater, but my house being almost 300 years old, even with (recent) insulation projects, is a challenge to heat and my FV is still struggling to keep up. That with a pellet stove at the other end of the house too.

I'll be watching this thread with interest.

Ashful · Jan 21, 2013

150 years ain't old!

The thing I've read about hot reloads on a cat stove is to be careful about fracturing the cat. Even "dry" wood still has maybe 20% moisture content, and the moisture coming off the wood near 200F in the first few minutes of a burn is what will fracture a cat that's sitting at maybe 800 - 1000F, if you engage too early.

I think the answer to leeave96's last paragraph is that non-cats cannot be shut down as tight as a cat stove, with respect to primary air control. This leads to the runaway situation, which seems to only plague non-cat stovers.

I have reloaded as high as 350F-375F, as measured on my thin cast iron top-load door. That happens when the after-work load has not burned down far enough, and I want to get the overnight load going, so I can get to bed. The primary challenge seems to be getting the wood charred over and the cat re-engaged without overheating the stove. For me, this has meant turning down the primary air as soon as the stove gets back up to 500'ish, and letting it burn long enough for the whole load to char before I re-engage the cat.

raybonz · Jan 21, 2013

Joful said:
150 years ain't old! The thing I've read about hot reloads on a cat stove is to be careful about fracturing the cat. Even "dry" wood still has maybe 20% moisture content, and the moisture coming off the wood near 200F in the first few minutes of a burn is what will fracture a cat that's sitting at maybe 800 - 1000F, if you engage too early.

I think the answer to leeave96's last paragraph is that non-cats cannot be shut down as tight as a cat stove, with respect to primary air control. This leads to the runaway situation, which seems to only plague non-cat stovers.

I have reloaded as high as 350F-375F, as measured on my thin cast iron top-load door. That happens when the after-work load has not burned down far enough, and I want to get the overnight load going, so I can get to bed. The primary challenge seems to be getting the wood charred over and the cat re-engaged without overheating the stove. For me, this has meant turning down the primary air as soon as the stove gets back up to 500'ish, and letting it burn long enough for the whole load to char before I re-engage the cat.

The OP has a PH which has a S/S cat so thermal shock wouldn't apply in my opinion..

Ray

Ashful · Jan 21, 2013

Good point... actually meant to mention the steelcat. One of the reasons I switched, as well.

jdp1152 · Jan 21, 2013

Cross,

Not trying to answer for everyone, but some of many scattered recent posts can be applicable. I don't have a CAT stove (well, today that changes), but read several posts from people that do saying they threw a couple of small splits on top of the hot coals to keep the temp up and burn down the coals for reload. I believe one poster even said he threw a handful of pellets on to accomplish this. Gets you through the coaling stage a bit quicker, produces some heat and gets you to the reload stage a bit quicker. Haven't tried the pellets, but the last week or two I've been doing the smaller splits and it seems to work better than opening the primary air with regard to keeping the heat in the house. Only problem is I'm burning through my fire starting wood. Maybe I should just start burning 24/7

Todd · Jan 21, 2013

I wouldn't worry about the cat mode and run that hybrid hot like a non cat. Shorter hotter reload schedules should keep that mass of stone up to temp.

Huntindog1 · Jan 21, 2013

Cross Cut Saw,

Try sorting out your wood to have your better quality high btu wood for the cold night. Pick out bigger dryer pieces of like oak or hickory or beech or locust.

You got one of the most efficient stoves on the market so you getting the most heat out of the wood your burning.

Sounds like your house is really drafty. Try to fix that some if possible look for drafty windows and stop the air leaks.

Make sure you build the heat up in the house in the evening before you load for the over night burn.

Someone posted that they load pieces so big they can only get 3 pieces in the Progress Hybrid. And that gets them like a 14 to 16 hour burn. So now take that info and think about you only need an over night 8 hour burn. So load your 3 big pieces of high BTU wood but leave the air open not for a 14- 16 hour burn but for a 8 to 9 hour burn at a higher rate, hotter burn to get more heat into the house.

Waulie · Jan 21, 2013

I've reloaded on the some pretty big coal beds. You'll be fine. Just be prepared to turn the air down very fast after reloading. The secondaries should start firing very quick and you can run like a noncat until you close the bypass. I would suggest leaving the bypass open for at least 5 minutes to get the load up to temp and drive off some moisture. Just make sure to keep an eye on it and be prepared to close the bypass if the flames start to get out of control. At some point, you will need to burn down some coals but you can get the stove up to a good temp and get rid of some coals if you throw a couple small splits in the coals and burn it with the air 50% or more open.

My house would be 100 if I tried the above.

jharkin · Jan 21, 2013

Cross Cut Saw said:
I've said it a lot in the past but my house is 150 years old, 1800 sf, with 9 1/2' ceilings downstairs, and poorly insulated.

Be happy you are not heating Browning's house!

Days like this week are times that I wish I had a stove as powerful as the progress. Problem is, we have so few of them each season lately I'd be baked out of the house on most of our typical (30s day 20s night) winter days.

I also have the luxury of natural gas to help the stove so I have no right to complain.

That said, I have done warm reloads. I go more by cat temps than stovetop to decide reloads, an usually look for the cat to drop below 800 for a reload. Anything over 1000 I still have some good heating time left in the load.

But yes, I do reload early at times on cold days. I can remember one case when I woke up and there was still a lot of coals from an overnighter, opened the air to heat the flue and the cat shot up to 1200 just on the caol bed. BUt I neded a lot of heat so I loaded anyway. What I do is just make sure to give the new load a minimum of 15 minutes to char before engaging no matter what the stovetop temp says. During this time I will sometimes see a hot stovetop temp actually decrease after loading a lot of fresh wood before increasing again. Then I engage and watch the catalyst monitor, and if I dont see the quick rise to 1000+ then I know the flue gases where too cool even though the stovetop might be hot, and I go back on bypass and try again.

Joful said:
I think the answer to leeave96's last paragraph is that non-cats cannot be shut down as tight as a cat stove, with respect to primary air control. This leads to the runaway situation, which seems to only plague non-cat stovers.

Give it time.. Sooner or later you will be posting "Help my cat is over 1800 and wont cool off!" situation. Ive seen it, other VC owners have, I believe Browning has seen it, I have heard reports of Buck stove owners experience it also. Woodstock and BK seems to be the only ones immune.

The one time I got in trouble from a hot reload was a time I did my nighttime load too early and tried to cheat by just adding one more split at bedtime while it was still in the early off gas stage. The stove went thermonuclear on me, cat temp off the chart (which means over 2000 on the digital probe !!!

!!) and the inside fireback cherry red. No idea why one more split did that but it did. Never again.

The primary challenge seems to be getting the wood charred over and the cat re-engaged without overheating the stove. For me, this has meant turning down the primary air as soon as the stove gets back up to 500'ish, and letting it burn long enough for the whole load to char before I re-engage the cat.

Same here. I do like you and just turn the air down while still on bypass if necessary. I can tell when the flue is getting a bit hot by the noises

Ashful · Jan 21, 2013

I've been in that situation once or twice, where the cat shoots up to 1800, but i just open the bypass and run smoke dragon mode for 5 - 10 minutes, then re-engage.

charly · Jan 21, 2013

I've added more wood to my Fireview as well with the stove at 450,, like mentioned previously,, I leave the bypass open for about 5 minutes and leave the draft set at like 1-1.5 so the stove pipe doesn't take off,,, then close the bypass..Everything seems fine.. I too have an 1840's farm house in which they framed new walls on top of the old plaster walls and post and beam, leaving an air space and then 6 inches of insulation into the new framing, cold laid up stone cellar with cooler floors from that.. I want to point up some stones near my sills that cold air is coming in and also staple up some of the foiled face bubble insulation under my floors...between my sub floor and old plank floor the wood is like 2 inches thick...I don't want to spray foam anything,, I feel it would take away the history of what you can see with the old stone , timbers and old flooring even underneath... I agree with Dennis,,, instead of a bigger stove and maybe using more wood,,, just insulate, I think that's a win-win situation..

Slow1 · Jan 21, 2013

I'm curious to know how you are burning your PH for maximum heat there - do you run it at 1/2 air so you get maximum secondaries in the box during the burn?

I did hot reloads in my FV and never had a problem (mostly it was topping off the firebox before bed on cold nights).

The main concern I'd have is that you may end up building up that coal bed too much. However, I have observed that I get a LOT of heat from the PH burning down coals (that hole in front jets right on them keeping them HOT). Even if the stovetop temp falls, the sides/front can peak much higher and that is a lot of surface area...

fox9988 · Jan 21, 2013

I've never had any problems with hot reloads, just have to keep an eye on the pipe temps for a few min before engaging the cat.

leeave96 · Jan 21, 2013

I load my Keystone whenever I like - hot or cold, it makes no difference. I don't get any runaway fires and no damage to the cat (mine is SS). Everything is very controllable with this stove. Much of that might be due to my flue set-up being a close fit for this stove - just don't know. What I do know is that the Keystone is a super great controllable stove, hot or cold loading.

BTW, I do the same with my Englander 30. Never been close to a run-away stove with it either.

Bill

Cross Cut Saw · Jan 21, 2013

Joful said:
150 years ain't old!

I know, I think some people on here have wood stacks older than that...

Cross Cut Saw · Jan 21, 2013

Huntindog1 said:
Cross Cut Saw,

Try sorting out your wood to have your better quality high btu wood for the cold night. Pick out bigger dryer pieces of like oak or hickory or beech or locust.

You got one of the most efficient stoves on the market so you getting the most heat out of the wood your burning.

Sounds like your house is really drafty. Try to fix that some if possible look for drafty windows and stop the air leaks.

Make sure you build the heat up in the house in the evening before you load for the over night burn.

Someone posted that they load pieces so big they can only get 3 pieces in the Progress Hybrid. And that gets them like a 14 to 16 hour burn. So now take that info and think about you only need an over night 8 hour burn. So load your 3 big pieces of high BTU wood but leave the air open not for a 14- 16 hour burn but for a 8 to 9 hour burn at a higher rate, hotter burn to get more heat into the house.

I have some nice big pieces of maple that I've been saving for just this occasion, it's the best I have but it's big and it's dry.

The biggest problem right now is the front door. It's VERY old and leaks like a sieve. I should have replaced it last year, oh well. All of the windows in the house have been replaced with nice double pained vinyl windows.

I'm working on getting my wife to not be cold before she reloads during the day, it just really doesn't even occur to her unless she feels cold. :rolleyes:

I have some nice big pieces but they're reading 20% on the moisture meter and leave massive coals so I've been splitting a lot of those.

Bub381 · Jan 21, 2013

It's like heating a framed building made out of tarp.Wont get too warm without insulation.Still need to better insulate here.

Cross Cut Saw · Jan 21, 2013

jharkin said:
The one time I got in trouble from a hot reload was a time I did my nighttime load too early and tried to cheat by just adding one more split at bedtime while it was still in the early off gas stage. The stove went thermonuclear on me, cat temp off the chart (which means over 2000 on the digital probe!!)

HollowHill · Jan 21, 2013

Crosscut, you will not be alone struggling with the upcoming cold snap. I, too, have both a Progress Hybrid and a drafty old house. And, its a struggle to keep ahead of the heat seeping/gushing out of the plethora of leaks in the house. I consider it a win when I can keep the kitchen (farthest room) above 60. That said, I do NOT reload on a hot coal bed. Bad things have happened to me when I have. I've tried throwing an extra stick or two on a partially burnt down load, never again. The new splits start offgassing to beat the band, I get crazy secondaries and all #$%%$ breaks loose - such as cracking the cooktop, etc. I think there is just too much energy going on all at once when you do that. When I reload on a hot coal bed, things take off too fast, and I even though I can keep the fire under control, I end up paying a price later in the burn. Such as, even though the fire is calm, my stove top will climb up into the mid 500s and I fear it won't stop climbing. I think of it as I am going to get x btus out of a load and I can either tack them onto a stove at less than 350 stove top temp, or greater than 350 stove top temp, with the result being my end high temp will be greater and quite possibly greater than I want to go. YMMV.

Cross Cut Saw · Jan 21, 2013

Slow1 said:
I'm curious to know how you are burning your PH for maximum heat there - do you run it at 1/2 air so you get maximum secondaries in the box during the burn?

Oh you choochin' betcha! Actually, I'll engage the cat with it half open, then slowly close it over about 30 minutes all the while maximizing the secondaries but leaving just a dancing little flame at the bottom and I can crank that bad boy up to 600 and keep it over 500 for over 4 hours.
I think when I'm doing that I can get it down to about 1/8 open with massive secondaries and the best part is the heat coming out of the glass, you literally can't get within a foot of the glass or you feel like your hand is melting!
I never fill the box (all the way) when I run like this, it's extremely controllable when it's loaded about 80% and burning hot...

Cross Cut Saw · Jan 21, 2013

HollowHill said:
Crosscut, you will not be alone struggling with the upcoming cold snap. I, too, have both a Progress Hybrid and a drafty old house. And, its a struggle to keep ahead of the heat seeping/gushing out of the plethora of leaks in the house. I consider it a win when I can keep the kitchen (farthest room) above 60. That said, I do NOT reload on a hot coal bed. Bad things have happened to me when I have. I've tried throwing an extra stick or two on a partially burnt down load, never again. The new splits start offgassing to beat the band, I get crazy secondaries and all #$%%$ breaks loose - such as cracking the cooktop, etc. I think there is just too much energy going on all at once when you do that. When I reload on a hot coal bed, things take off too fast, and I even though I can keep the fire under control, I end up paying a price later in the burn. Such as, even though the fire is calm, my stove top will climb up into the mid 500s and I fear it won't stop climbing. I think of it as I am going to get x btus out of a load and I can either tack them onto a stove at less than 350 stove top temp, or greater than 350 stove top temp, with the result being my end high temp will be greater and quite possibly greater than I want to go. YMMV.

Even loading smaller loads?

I cracked my cook top too, but I think it was more a matter of taking stove top temps where they had originally suggested and the cook top absorbing a lot of that energy.

I had bad experiences when I reloaded hot, engaged the cat, and then fully closed down the air. I had out of control temps, but leaving the air open 1/8th to 1/4 I've been able to control it without any problem...

raybonz · Jan 21, 2013

I used to burn a cat stove and reloading now I do not think about any crack the cat issues.. I would think a PH would be just fine because it also burns secondary burn mode.. I really like the hybrid idea and think this is the future of wood burning and also feel that wood guns are even better as they are incredibly efficient and clean burning as a matter of fact they burn like a gas burner.. Cool stuff!..

Ray

Cross Cut Saw · Jan 21, 2013

I had a real breakthrough operating this stove just this morning!

I have a box fan pointed at the stove about 6 feet from the loading side, the stove sits on a hearth that is about 8" off the ground and with the box fan on the ground it is moving a TON of air out of that room!

It's only 24 out today and I had to let the stove cool down to 300 to load since the kitchen was 76 degrees, the stove room was 84 degrees and the living room (the coldest room in the house due to layout) was 70 degrees!

I have two new ceiling fans I've been meaning to install in the kitchen and living room to try and get air to move to those rooms better and I'm sure they'll help when I do get around to it.

The stove is in what used to be our formal dining room with the kitchen through a door behind and to the right of the stove while the door to the living room is almost directly in front of the stove about 10'. The problem is the door that leads to the living room opens up to the stairs leading from the living room to the upstairs and all of the hot air that comes out of the stove room gets sucked right up the stairway while the living room gets cold. I actually put a fan on one of the steps today pointing into the living room and it worked like a charm. The upstairs is always nice and warm, one of the benefits of a good draft...

I'm very interested in finding out how this affect the house on a bitter cold day.

Huntindog1 · Jan 21, 2013

Cross Cut Saw said:
I have some nice big pieces of maple that I've been saving for just this occasion, it's the best I have but it's big and it's dry.

The biggest problem right now is the front door. It's VERY old and leaks like a sieve. I should have replaced it last year, oh well. All of the windows in the house have been replaced with nice double pained vinyl windows.

I'm working on getting my wife to not be cold before she reloads during the day, it just really doesn't even occur to her unless she feels cold.

I have some nice big pieces but they're reading 20% on the moisture meter and leave massive coals so I've been splitting a lot of those.

I have some maple , dont know what kind, its pretty good wood , I think its hard maple and not soft maple but this maple I got still doesnt burn near as good as oak or hickory.

Edit: I just looked up BTU rating on hard maple and its pretty high so maybe my maple wood is soft maple.

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