Anyone want to play what's wrong with this picture?

Sprinter · Dec 16, 2012

firefighterjake said:
Just a FYI . . . check in with the Fire Inspector . . . not the Fire Chief or firefighters. I mean to say . . . firefighters are very good at putting out fires, but after that it really is a hit or miss on the individual chief or firefighter as to whether they are familiar with modern stoves, fire codes, etc. . . . some will be quite smart and be an asset . . . others will know just enough to be dangerous. Fire inspectors on the other hand typically know one thing -- what is right and what is wrong. While we live in a world of techni-color they often tend to see things in black and white . . . for better . . . or for worse.

That's what I've been wanting to say as well. I spent 10 years in the Fire Service, many as an officer, and never would have presumed to inspect someone's installation with any authority. I would have tried to hook them up with someone qualified.

Malatu · Dec 17, 2012

I'm not an attorney but have experience as a landlord in small claims court. Getting advise from an attorney is money well spent.

Here is my take and some advice on your situation.

For the most part, anything you've done, or conversations you've had with the installer up to this point in time sounds like it's been nothing but a pissing contest or at best, wasted time. And moving forward, those conversations will have no value to the process of getting this job done correctly. To get control of this situation you need to take control of this situation.

Everything you do from this point forward needs to be done for the purpose of taking it to small claims court (even if you don't have to take it that far.) Hopefully you won't have to, but if it gets that far, you need to have every darn thing documented! You can't document things such as communications after the fact. From this point forward, every form of communication needs to be in writing and sent via registered mail requiring a signature of receipt! No exceptions! No more conversations on the phone with the installer.....none! If they call you on the phone to say they will make repairs on December 30th, immediately write them a letter reviwing the conversation and confirming the repair date. Send it certified mail.

Get the installation inspected along with a report by a certified installer, manufacturer or fire marshal. You might want to spend a little bit of money on a detailed report that goes beyond a check list. My first choice would be the fire Marshall. Ask them to reference specific sections of the fire code in their report(fire marshalls can be ruthless and have quite a bit of real as well as perceived authority). Send the installer a certified letter that clearly requesting them to "make it right". Include any reports you had completed. In your letter request a response and or remedy within X number of days (an attorney can help you determine an appropriate amount of days) and if the deadline isn't met, you will have another installer make it right and you will take them to court to recoup your expenses as a result of the improper install. Make sure you send it certified mail! Again, no phone calls! If they respond to you by telephone, take good notes and get them notarized (proves date of conversation) and send a certified letter to the installer summarizing the conversion. Bottom line, when you go to small claims court, you need to have as much documentation as possible that clearly paints an accurate picture of the situation.

Also, you seemed to be a bit bend out of shape as to what the fireman stated about burning wood incorrectly. Unless I'm missing something, what the heck does that have to do with an improper install? In small claims court, documentation is king? I feel strongly the judge wont give a rat's ass about your skill as a "wood-burner". I also suggest that Judges that hear small claim issues love cases where there is documentation. It makes their job much easier. Do you homework. I suggest sitting in on a couple of cases and see how things work. They often last 10 to 15 minutes at the most. The process can seem insurmountable at first but it's not that hard, at least not in Delaware. I would also consult with an attorney for the purpose of learning some obvious pitfalls.

Again consult with an attorney. At the very least the following is what you'll need to accomplish during your court proceeding:

You'll need to document and present who originally did the installation. Include official business name and address. If they have a store front, most business have to display their business license.

You'll need to clearly document and present that the install was performed incorrectly and is not to code.

You'll need to document and present any communications (certified letter) you had with the installer showing that you clearly communicated with them the the inappropriateness of installation, and that you provided them with any reports documenting such.

If you've done your homework you will be able to prove:

The installer in the court room did the work incorrectly and the installation does not meet code
You communicated and shared all information/documentation with the installer and gave them the opportunity to respond as to how and when they would remedy the installation. (At this point, if you in court, chances are they never responded to your letter or they responded saying they wouldn't do anything).

I would suggest the two most important things in this process is the documentation you get proving the install does not meet code and the certified letter you send to them that informs them their work is not up to code and that you are requesting they remedy it. Regarding the letter, this is where advice from an attorney would be money well spent.

jtb51b · Dec 18, 2012

Malatu said:
I'm not an attorney but have experience as a landlord in small claims court. Getting advise from an attorney is money well spent.

Here is my take and some advice on your situation.

For the most part, anything you've done, or conversations you've had with the installer up to this point in time sounds like it's been nothing but a pissing contest or at best, wasted time. And moving forward, those conversations will have no value to the process of getting this job done correctly. To get control of this situation you need to take control of this situation.

Everything you do from this point forward needs to be done for the purpose of taking it to small claims court (even if you don't have to take it that far.) Hopefully you won't have to, but if it gets that far, you need to have every darn thing documented! You can't document things such as communications after the fact. From this point forward, every form of communication needs to be in writing and sent via registered mail requiring a signature of receipt! No exceptions! No more conversations on the phone with the installer.....none! If they call you on the phone to say they will make repairs on December 30th, immediately write them a letter reviwing the conversation and confirming the repair date. Send it certified mail.

Get the installation inspected along with a report by a certified installer, manufacturer or fire marshal. You might want to spend a little bit of money on a detailed report that goes beyond a check list. My first choice would be the fire Marshall. Ask them to reference specific sections of the fire code in their report(fire marshalls can be ruthless and have quite a bit of real as well as perceived authority). Send the installer a certified letter that clearly requesting them to "make it right". Include any reports you had completed. In your letter request a response and or remedy within X number of days (an attorney can help you determine an appropriate amount of days) and if the deadline isn't met, you will have another installer make it right and you will take them to court to recoup your expenses as a result of the improper install. Make sure you send it certified mail! Again, no phone calls! If they respond to you by telephone, take good notes and get them notarized (proves date of conversation) and send a certified letter to the installer summarizing the conversion. Bottom line, when you go to small claims court, you need to have as much documentation as possible that clearly paints an accurate picture of the situation.

Also, you seemed to be a bit bend out of shape as to what the fireman stated about burning wood incorrectly. Unless I'm missing something, what the heck does that have to do with an improper install? In small claims court, documentation is king? I feel strongly the judge wont give a rat's ass about your skill as a "wood-burner". I also suggest that Judges that hear small claim issues love cases where there is documentation. It makes their job much easier. Do you homework. I suggest sitting in on a couple of cases and see how things work. They often last 10 to 15 minutes at the most. The process can seem insurmountable at first but it's not that hard, at least not in Delaware. I would also consult with an attorney for the purpose of learning some obvious pitfalls.

Again consult with an attorney. At the very least the following is what you'll need to accomplish during your court proceeding:

You'll need to document and present who originally did the installation. Include official business name and address. If they have a store front, most business have to display their business license.

You'll need to clearly document and present that the install was performed incorrectly and is not to code.

You'll need to document and present any communications (certified letter) you had with the installer showing that you clearly communicated with them the the inappropriateness of installation, and that you provided them with any reports documenting such.

If you've done your homework you will be able to prove:

The installer in the court room did the work incorrectly and the installation does not meet code

You communicated and shared all information/documentation with the installer and gave them the opportunity to respond as to how and when they would remedy the installation. (At this point, if you in court, chances are they never responded to your letter or they responded saying they wouldn't do anything).

I would suggest the two most important things in this process is the documentation you get proving the install does not meet code and the certified letter you send to them that informs them their work is not up to code and that you are requesting they remedy it. Regarding the letter, this is where advice from an attorney would be money well spent.

That is all well and good but as a person who has WON in small claims court I can tell you that most of the time you do NOT ever see your money and you are then just out more time and headache. You will NOT be paid by the court, and they will only issue you a judgement against those people (or business) and you can take that judgement and a couple bucks to Mcdonalds and get a happy meal. I would suggest calling a lawyer and see if they are interested in taking the case. If so, you will get paid-- if not they know there is no way THEY will get paid so they will NOT be eager to take the case. Good luck, I hope they step up and do you right, or at least you get the pipe installed by someone who knows what they are doing and you can enjoy your stove.

Jason

Sprinter · Dec 18, 2012

I'd love to see a statistic on what percentage of small claims awards are collected.

pearlgirl · Jan 25, 2013

I realize I am way slow to reply, but thank you for all the well thought out advice and time you took to reply to my situation.

We had some one out yesterday to give an estimate on moving the stove to another location as it seems it just can not go where it was originally installed. There are too many issues that can simply not be fixed. I haven't heard back yet on what it will cost. We are ok with having it moved so we can at least use the stove having invested so much money, but it will not be in a location that will serve our need for heat like it could have where it was originally installed. Had we known we could not install a stove in the particular room we wanted, we would not have gotten one at all. Now we are stuck with the one we bought and will just have to make the best of it in a less than ideal location.

Where we are located we are limited to a $3000 judgement in small claims court, and as some one mentioned just because we win it does not mean we will see the money. So I have to figure out how we'd get the money if we did win, or it's not worth the hassle. The $3000 doesn't even cover the original purchase and install, though I think we'd get to keep the stove in which case $3000 should cover moving it and repairing the holes where it was put originally. So we'd just be out our initial investment having purchased something we can't really use how we intended but we'd get some use out of it at least.

Right now I have a report from a certified chimney inspector explaining the issues with the install, and a letter from the local code enforcement officer stating it does not meet code. Tracking down a fire marshal may be helpful, we'll see. Sounds like I need send my documentation it to the installer via certified mail and ask for what we want by a certain date so that I can prove we tried to work things out with them before going to court.

Malatu said:
I'm not an attorney but have experience as a landlord in small claims court. Getting advise from an attorney is money well spent.

Here is my take and some advice on your situation.

For the most part, anything you've done, or conversations you've had with the installer up to this point in time sounds like it's been nothing but a pissing contest or at best, wasted time. And moving forward, those conversations will have no value to the process of getting this job done correctly. To get control of this situation you need to take control of this situation.

Everything you do from this point forward needs to be done for the purpose of taking it to small claims court (even if you don't have to take it that far.) Hopefully you won't have to, but if it gets that far, you need to have every darn thing documented! You can't document things such as communications after the fact. From this point forward, every form of communication needs to be in writing and sent via registered mail requiring a signature of receipt! No exceptions! No more conversations on the phone with the installer.....none! If they call you on the phone to say they will make repairs on December 30th, immediately write them a letter reviwing the conversation and confirming the repair date. Send it certified mail.

Get the installation inspected along with a report by a certified installer, manufacturer or fire marshal. You might want to spend a little bit of money on a detailed report that goes beyond a check list. My first choice would be the fire Marshall. Ask them to reference specific sections of the fire code in their report(fire marshalls can be ruthless and have quite a bit of real as well as perceived authority). Send the installer a certified letter that clearly requesting them to "make it right". Include any reports you had completed. In your letter request a response and or remedy within X number of days (an attorney can help you determine an appropriate amount of days) and if the deadline isn't met, you will have another installer make it right and you will take them to court to recoup your expenses as a result of the improper install. Make sure you send it certified mail! Again, no phone calls! If they respond to you by telephone, take good notes and get them notarized (proves date of conversation) and send a certified letter to the installer summarizing the conversion. Bottom line, when you go to small claims court, you need to have as much documentation as possible that clearly paints an accurate picture of the situation.

Also, you seemed to be a bit bend out of shape as to what the fireman stated about burning wood incorrectly. Unless I'm missing something, what the heck does that have to do with an improper install? In small claims court, documentation is king? I feel strongly the judge wont give a rat's ass about your skill as a "wood-burner". I also suggest that Judges that hear small claim issues love cases where there is documentation. It makes their job much easier. Do you homework. I suggest sitting in on a couple of cases and see how things work. They often last 10 to 15 minutes at the most. The process can seem insurmountable at first but it's not that hard, at least not in Delaware. I would also consult with an attorney for the purpose of learning some obvious pitfalls.

Again consult with an attorney. At the very least the following is what you'll need to accomplish during your court proceeding:

You'll need to document and present who originally did the installation. Include official business name and address. If they have a store front, most business have to display their business license.

You'll need to clearly document and present that the install was performed incorrectly and is not to code.

You'll need to document and present any communications (certified letter) you had with the installer showing that you clearly communicated with them the the inappropriateness of installation, and that you provided them with any reports documenting such.

If you've done your homework you will be able to prove:

The installer in the court room did the work incorrectly and the installation does not meet code

You communicated and shared all information/documentation with the installer and gave them the opportunity to respond as to how and when they would remedy the installation. (At this point, if you in court, chances are they never responded to your letter or they responded saying they wouldn't do anything).

I would suggest the two most important things in this process is the documentation you get proving the install does not meet code and the certified letter you send to them that informs them their work is not up to code and that you are requesting they remedy it. Regarding the letter, this is where advice from an attorney would be money well spent.

Malatu · Jan 25, 2013

pearlgirl said:
I realize I am way slow to reply, but thank you for all the well thought out advice and time you took to reply to my situation.

We had some one out yesterday to give an estimate on moving the stove to another location as it seems it just can not go where it was originally installed. There are too many issues that can simply not be fixed. I haven't heard back yet on what it will cost. We are ok with having it moved so we can at least use the stove having invested so much money, but it will not be in a location that will serve our need for heat like it could have where it was originally installed. Had we known we could not install a stove in the particular room we wanted, we would not have gotten one at all. Now we are stuck with the one we bought and will just have to make the best of it in a less than ideal location.

Where we are located we are limited to a $3000 judgement in small claims court, and as some one mentioned just because we win it does not mean we will see the money. So I have to figure out how we'd get the money if we did win, or it's not worth the hassle. The $3000 doesn't even cover the original purchase and install, though I think we'd get to keep the stove in which case $3000 should cover moving it and repairing the holes where it was put originally. So we'd just be out our initial investment having purchased something we can't really use how we intended but we'd get some use out of it at least.

Right now I have a report from a certified chimney inspector explaining the issues with the install, and a letter from the local code enforcement officer stating it does not meet code. Tracking down a fire marshal may be helpful, we'll see. Sounds like I need send my documentation it to the installer via certified mail and ask for what we want by a certain date so that I can prove we tried to work things out with them before going to court.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you.

pen · Jan 25, 2013

pearlgirl said:
Right now I have a report from a certified chimney inspector explaining the issues with the install, and a letter from the local code enforcement officer stating it does not meet code. Tracking down a fire marshal may be helpful, we'll see. Sounds like I need send my documentation it to the installer via certified mail and ask for what we want by a certain date so that I can prove we tried to work things out with them before going to court.

Have you talked to the installers since getting this information?

If that didn't get you anywhere (It's been a while since I reviewed all this), but if you haven't already, perhaps having an attorney draw up a letter, containing copies of this information, and having it sent directly to the people with an explanation of what it would take to make it right (such as the estimate from another company for the cost of moving the unit) could persuade them to cover the cost w/out going to court?

pen

pearlgirl · Jan 25, 2013

pen said:
Have you talked to the installers since getting this information?

If that didn't get you anywhere (It's been a while since I reviewed all this), but if you haven't already, perhaps having an attorney draw up a letter, containing copies of this information, and having it sent directly to the people with an explanation of what it would take to make it right (such as the estimate from another company for the cost of moving the unit) could persuade them to cover the cost w/out going to court?

pen

The owner of the install company spoke with the code enforcer herself and was told it does not meet code, and I have forwarded the certified chimney expert's report to her as well. So she does know. I emailed her and basically said now that you have this information you asked for, (she wanted the report etc) what are you going to do to rectify the situation? They have not replied. I also have called and left a message for her to call me and she has not called back. (It's been a few weeks now). The holidays fell in the middle of all of this so that has kind of dragged things out. I think what you are suggesting with having an attorney draw up a letter etc is a great idea, just not sure if I can make that happen or not. I have talked to a couple offices and they just point me to small claims court. I can try some one else though and ask they very specific question of them sending the letter etc.

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Anyone want to play what's wrong with this picture?

Sprinter

Minister of Fire

Malatu

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jtb51b

Feeling the Heat

Sprinter

Minister of Fire

pearlgirl

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Malatu

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pen

There are some who call me...mod.

pearlgirl

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