In need of help/advice?

BeGreen said:

Yep, good to see progress. I was suspicious of that outside vent. Good to have Tom jump on board with a fireplace ID. Tom, just curious, how does the outside air terminate at the heatform fireplace? Is there a duct fitting inside the box that could be flex-piped to the Summit's OAK connection?

Also, acosta - did the surround get pulled for a proper inspection? Are all pieces in place on the top of the stove?

Click to expand...

The building inspector is coming Wednesday for an inspection. He asked me to pull the surrount off for a proper inspection. At this point, we've determined that the installer used regular fiberglass insulation in the install, which according to Owens Corning is only rated up to 260° (nice fire hazard). I mentioned it to the installer and he's "never heard of such a thing". He says he's been installing for years using this method and has "never" had a problem. He said he would install a block off plate for me, but doesn't recommend it. He said it would just be a piece of sheet metal in place against the pipe and would leave lots of areas for air to pass through. He said it would make my situation worse, by allowing cold air to hit the stove. He said the insulation is actually "better" because it stops the air from flowing.

He also said the lack of the full flue is NOT contributing to my problem. The full flue only enhances draft. Since my stove is reaching 600°, I don't have a draft problem. They RARELY install full flue's. He's killing me!

He also said my fireplace was a masonry fireplace. He described it exactly like Tom said (metal box with masonry over it). Is that considered a pre-fab (requires full flue) or masonry (doesn't require full flue)? Is he right?

Thanks, Tom. I completely agree about the full liner and definitely want to install one. I'm just thinking of ways to get the installer to come back and install it, and offsetting the money I already paid him for the half assed install he did the first time. I figured if it was required by code or the manufacturer then it was clearly his fault and he would have to do re-do properly using the full liner. I've already found out he used insulation incorrectly and needs to correct that problem. I trying to figure a way for him to correct the full flue liner as well.


Anyone have any suggestions?

BeGreen said:

I'd say acosta might be in the driver's seat. Here is an installer that is bragging about a number of suspect installs. Does the inspector know about these jobs?

Click to expand...

Funny you say that...the inspector said to me today "I wonder how many other installs he did like this".

Hogwildz said:

acosta2269 said:

Thanks, Tom. I completely agree about the full liner and definitely want to install one. I'm just thinking of ways to get the installer to come back and install it, and offsetting the money I already paid him for the half assed install he did the first time. I figured if it was required by code or the manufacturer then it was clearly his fault and he would have to do re-do properly using the full liner. I've already found out he used insulation incorrectly and needs to correct that problem. I trying to figure a way for him to correct the full flue liner as well.


Anyone have any suggestions?

Click to expand...

A full liner is going to cost extra, no way around that. I highly doubt he will even credit you for the direct connect towards the full liner. Given the BS he has already handed you. You may have to put up the extra. Just be sure he doesn't ream you in retaliation for the insulation & other issues.

Click to expand...

I don't mind paying for the difference in the liner cost and the block off plate, but I'd want him to credit me back for the direct liner and the BS installation job he did the fist time.

What is a reasonable price for a full liner install along with a block off plate (all materials and labor)?

elkimmeg said:

As promised I call your inspector but he was out doing inspections. I will call him in the morning. I also faxed Him a copy of the first 3 pages of chapter 12
2003 NFPA211, coppied on our town seal and logo from the Building Inspections Dept. He now has the written codes pertaining to your installation.

Any other question I left my office number and you know how to contact me Hopefully It will help get things right

good luck with you inspection tomorrow and let up know what occured

See Roo I also help Summit owners

Click to expand...

Elk,

Thank you again for all of your help. I will call him in the morning before our meeting and make sure he got the materials you sent him. I'll keep you posted.

So it's been a couple of weeks now. I figured during that time I'd let some others get their problems solved instead of monopolizing the board. I'm back with an update....

Thanks to Elk, and going back and forth for weeks, my inspector finally failed the installation of the insert. The installer is coming back Thursday to install a FULL liner, with a metal block off plate, with insulation above the plate. That's good news, finally. Thank you again, Elk. You really did way more than I ever expected. I appreciate it.

Over the weekend I think I may have pinpointed my "heat output" issues, but I'm not sure. I had the stove burning nicely at 600°. The air coming out of the blower was warm/hot. With the stove burning, I shutt off the blower. Withing minutes, the stove temp shot up to around 800°. The stove was hot! The room got immediately warmer. You felt the heat coming off the stove once you reached within 10 feet of the stove. It was something I never felt before. I got concerned, so I turned the blower back on and within minutes, the stove temps went back down into the 600's. Weird! I turned the blower off several times and each time, the stove temps shot up and A LOT more heat was coming off the stove. The room became much warmer. Actually, last night was the 1st night my wife didn't use a blanket sitting on the couch next to the stove. It was amazing!

So I called PE this morning. Cathy (very nice lady) said it sounds like the blower is pulling cold air back down the chimney (because I have a 1/2 liner). The cold air is mixing with the hot air and releasing WARM air to the room. By shutting the blower off, it's no longer drawing the cold air down the chimney. She said that once I install the full liner, it should eliminate this problem and the blower will only blow the hot air from around the stove, no longer mixing with the cold. She also said not to worry about the 800° temps on the stove. She said the full liner will also make the wood burn longer and give me more heat.

Does this make sense? Could this have been my problem all along? Will my problem really go away Thursday?

BeGreen said:

Semi-plausible, though I'd have thought that the PE insert would be designed to extract the room's interior air into the blower plenum and not the fireplace air. Otherwise it would seem this would be a common issue. But not owning this insert I'll wait for others to comment. (With Dylan not here, someone's got to be the skeptic.)

Click to expand...

PE said that blower was drawing both, the room's interior air and sucking air down the chimney through any openings in the insulation that was stuffed up there. She said that because my chimney is on an exterior wall, the inside of the chimney fills with cold air. Because I only have a 1/2 flue liner that dumps out into a larger 10" liner, the blower is drawing cold air back towards the stove, through any opening in the insulation. Is that plausible? Would a full liner eliminate this issue, or would a sealed block off plate, eliminate this isse? She seemed confident that the full liner, even without the block off plate would eliminate this problem, but who knows.

BrotherBart said:

acosta2269 said:

BeGreen said:

Semi-plausible, though I'd have thought that the PE insert would be designed to extract the room's interior air into the blower plenum and not the fireplace air. Otherwise it would seem this would be a common issue. But not owning this insert I'll wait for others to comment. (With Dylan not here, someone's got to be the skeptic.)

Click to expand...

PE said that blower was drawing both, the room's interior air and sucking air down the chimney through any openings in the insulation that was stuffed up there. She said that because my chimney is on an exterior wall, the inside of the chimney fills with cold air. Because I only have a 1/2 flue liner that dumps out into a larger 10" liner, the blower is drawing cold air back towards the stove, through any opening in the insulation. Is that plausible? Would a full liner eliminate this issue, or would a sealed block off plate, eliminate this isse? She seemed confident that the full liner, even without the block off plate would eliminate this problem, but who knows.

Click to expand...

And where would this cold air that is being drawn down the chimney be coming from? From your 1/2 flue liner on up is filled with smoke and hot exhaust from that insert burning. There ain't no cold air hanging around up there to be drawn back down. If air was being pulled back down that chimney and mixed with the air coming out of the blower you would have one mighty smokey house, and carbon monoxide poisoning.

Click to expand...

What you are saying also makes sense. I don't know what the problem is. That's why I asked the questions. I do know that the blower is definitely cooling off the stove. Without the blower the stove hits 800°. With the blower going, the stove is around 600°.