Hello everyone hope your spring is going well lots of rain here in Ontario .I was wondering if anyone has installed a 1000 gallon tank vertical what did you use for the base .Do you think this is a good idea ? I have the chance now as I am renovating my shed to install what would look like an intercontinental ballistic missile .Thanks for your input coal reaper ,and all other replies.
1000 gallon vertical
- Thread starter Quincy
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Tennman
Minister of Fire
I just bought 3"x.25" wall angle which we'll will be welding to the sides vertically. I will be using four of these angles as the legs with a ~4"x4" flange on the bottom spread the load into the pad. I need to compute the weld length based on the weight but will do that shortly. Your load will be double mine so once I compute weld length for my application you could double it for yours assuming 1/4" fillet welds. One vendor was going to provide a rolled round base much like what's provided on expansion tanks. Just easier for me to fab four angle legs. BTW, 500 gal tank = ~1200 lbs + 500 gal water = ~5400 lbs. 1000 lb tank =~1800 lbs + 8400 lbs water = ~10,200 lbs. When I get time later I'll compute length of welded angle to the tank to get a safety factor of 4 or more. I intend to weld both angle legs to the tank wall. Let me know if you're interested in the length. The column loading of 3x3x.25 for your application also is way safe in compression.
Tennman
Minister of Fire
Steel angle will be here this morning for my 500 gal storage legs which will be welded to allow my tanks to stand vertically. I did the math on weld shear stress. Painfully obvious how long it's been since I've done this since the weld length is absurdly small to take our loads. A 2" weld on both legs of the 3" angle on each of the 4 legs (that's 8 - 2" welds) gives a Safety Factor of over 10! So just for stability of the legs I'm going to weld 10" or 12" of the angles to the bottom sides of my tanks which gives me an absurd SF of nearly 100!! You're twice the weight so if you do four legs, with eight 12" welds you'll have a SF of approaching 50 which should last until the year 3013. I'm inching closer to storage!
Coal Reaper
Minister of Fire
From a stability standpoint i want my base to be a little larger than the diameter of the tanks. Also i did not know how good the concrete was or the thickness. I assumed at least 6" and this was verified at a later date when i drilled for the lines to house. Including the bottome of the tank i have five points of contact on the steel plate that is on the floor. One thing i would of done would be to put a 1/2" or so sheet of high density plastic between the steel plate and concrete. I know i am losing heat through conduction to the slab although this may be negligible.
What is your plan to actually get it verticle? We used a hydrolic winch on an anchored jeep. Had to chain the base of tank to winch to keep it from sliding and all cables had to be perfected in line or it started to rock back and forth. Its also hairy when it gets to verticle and wans to keep going. I has guys holding four ropes to keep it in place. Its a lot of weight!
What is your plan to actually get it verticle? We used a hydrolic winch on an anchored jeep. Had to chain the base of tank to winch to keep it from sliding and all cables had to be perfected in line or it started to rock back and forth. Its also hairy when it gets to verticle and wans to keep going. I has guys holding four ropes to keep it in place. Its a lot of weight!
Coal Reaper
Minister of Fire
infinitymike
Minister of Fire
My plan for two side-by side 1000's is to prop them atop a manhole casting frame (like the attached picture, without the lid obviously)
, get them perfectly plumb, then spot weld them to the frame. The frame has a flange of about 36" OD and 26" ID, which helps spread the load on the floor. My frames have holes cast in the flange so it's easy to put in a few concrete anchors. I work in the town where all the castings are made, and spec them all the time for my job, so it was easy for me to get ahold of a couple brand new 'defects' from the sales rep. If you go to any sewer contractor or city public works dept they'll have used ones lying around you can get in exhange for an equal weight of beer.
I have a telehandler so I can lift them into place pretty easy with a choker. Will weld a tab between the two and run a couple struts to the back wall of the shed just to make sure they don't move.
Though I haven't installed them yet, I think the ability to rotate the end of the tank around in the frame as I level it will make it easy to get it level, as compared to welded on brackets which would require shimming to get it dead nuts on.
The 10,000# full weight per tank is bearing on a 500 square inch area, so about 20 psi. No big deal, even for my foam under a 5" floor. i like coal reaper's idea of the plastic sheet. I may throw a piece of 1/4" HDPE I have under just to keep the casting from staining the concrete, as raw cast iron will do. I'm not worried about heat loss as I'm on a heated floor anyway.
, get them perfectly plumb, then spot weld them to the frame. The frame has a flange of about 36" OD and 26" ID, which helps spread the load on the floor. My frames have holes cast in the flange so it's easy to put in a few concrete anchors. I work in the town where all the castings are made, and spec them all the time for my job, so it was easy for me to get ahold of a couple brand new 'defects' from the sales rep. If you go to any sewer contractor or city public works dept they'll have used ones lying around you can get in exhange for an equal weight of beer.I have a telehandler so I can lift them into place pretty easy with a choker. Will weld a tab between the two and run a couple struts to the back wall of the shed just to make sure they don't move.
Though I haven't installed them yet, I think the ability to rotate the end of the tank around in the frame as I level it will make it easy to get it level, as compared to welded on brackets which would require shimming to get it dead nuts on.
The 10,000# full weight per tank is bearing on a 500 square inch area, so about 20 psi. No big deal, even for my foam under a 5" floor. i like coal reaper's idea of the plastic sheet. I may throw a piece of 1/4" HDPE I have under just to keep the casting from staining the concrete, as raw cast iron will do. I'm not worried about heat loss as I'm on a heated floor anyway.
There is a lot of good ideas from you guys nice work on the weld length for the tanks tennman and for forwarding the calculations.I like a combination of the legs and the manhole base which I can obtain .As for raising the tank I was thinking a crane or chaining the tank in a dump trailer on an angle and raising the box to get it close to vertical.
Tennman
Minister of Fire
The little video is hilarious.
Thanks Quincy. One of my engineers heard the video music, came into my office as I was watching it, and we both laughed. I was watching the big bucket loader on the barge and expecting it to roll over and I said.... "Oh no...", then he said... "Look it's paddling!!". Hilarious
But seriously, my customers expect to see a rationale and loads analysis for just about all of our work. Particularly when there is a very real safety risk that could result in loss of life. Typically in extreme safety tasks our customers hire someone to review our analysis. It may appear I went overboard in the data, but the fact is you and your family will be in near proximity to about 11,000 lbs. A weld or leg failure at the wrong time could certainly kill someone. With that at stake I wouldn't trust someone telling me, "I think that will work". Most of the time here in the boiler room we talk about boilers, pumps, pex, valves, wood, control stuff, but rarely do we give free advice that could result in someone getting killed. If done as I suggested, I would let any of my family around your vertical tank when it's loaded. And, of course, more legs are better if you choose, but at minimum four will be fine if done as described.
But don't expect me to give any advice on controls, copper soldering, or the new V-gun boiler.
Thanks Quincy. One of my engineers heard the video music, came into my office as I was watching it, and we both laughed. I was watching the big bucket loader on the barge and expecting it to roll over and I said.... "Oh no...", then he said... "Look it's paddling!!". Hilarious
But seriously, my customers expect to see a rationale and loads analysis for just about all of our work. Particularly when there is a very real safety risk that could result in loss of life. Typically in extreme safety tasks our customers hire someone to review our analysis. It may appear I went overboard in the data, but the fact is you and your family will be in near proximity to about 11,000 lbs. A weld or leg failure at the wrong time could certainly kill someone. With that at stake I wouldn't trust someone telling me, "I think that will work". Most of the time here in the boiler room we talk about boilers, pumps, pex, valves, wood, control stuff, but rarely do we give free advice that could result in someone getting killed. If done as I suggested, I would let any of my family around your vertical tank when it's loaded. And, of course, more legs are better if you choose, but at minimum four will be fine if done as described.
But don't expect me to give any advice on controls, copper soldering, or the new V-gun boiler.
Coal Reaper
Minister of Fire
do you anticipate any issues welding to the casting? will you pre-heat it? is that as strong as welding wrought-wrought?
Coal Reaper
Minister of Fire
i forget how long ago i first saw that video but it takes about a week to clear out of my system until i find it again next time!
Coal Reaper
Minister of Fire
close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear bombs. its over 1000#s and 16' long. it needs to be near perfect plumb to stay put safely. i jacked up one side of the base to get 1/2" rods underneath to slide them into place and that little bit made it want teeter. anticipate this and be prepared!
What about securing them to the floor once installed? Wedge-It anchors are good enough to keep car lifts from pulling out of concrete floors. A few of those around your base should help reduce the topple factor.
ac
ac
dogwood
Minister of Fire
Quincy, have you considered what might happen to those 16 foot tall, 10,000 lb. tanks if there is even a mild earthquake in your area. Last one here shook a good portion of the northeastern U.S. I've been through two others, one in the middle of Europe in Stuttgart, Germany and the other in Seattle, WA. Just so happened I was at work in northern Virginia, fairly close to the epicenter in Louisa, VA for the last one. So in my experience theses things do happen unexpectedly, and should be prepared for, as the result might not be so good with 10,000 lbs standing on edge. Is the some way you could keep you tanks from tipping over in that scenario? Maybe securing the top somehow. I used to think the ground staying in place was to be taken for granted. Not any more. First quake will quickly disabuse you of that notion. Good luck with your project.
Mike
Mike
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
If there is an earthquake, don't hang out by a tall and skinny 10,000$ tank. If it starts to tip, run sideways.
A comedy of errors would have to happen for you to be crushed. If the thing falls over when you aren't there, there certainly could be property damage.
A comedy of errors would have to happen for you to be crushed. If the thing falls over when you aren't there, there certainly could be property damage.
I'm not particulary concerned about the mild steel to cast iron weld. The tank is fully supported by the casting so all the welds do is prevent rotation of the "ball and socket" in essence.
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